Meet Jordina Quain

Maddie 0:00

My guest today has spent over 10 years teaching, training, and advocating for young people to get the sex education they actually deserve. She's a sexologist, a researcher, an educator, and has worked everywhere that matters, developing educational resources and training for people with disabilities, multicultural communities, young people in alternative education and regional settings. She's training WA's youth sector. She supports workers and parents from not-for-profits, the Department of Health, and now the Relationship and Sexual Education RSE project at Curtin University, training teachers and supporting schools. Which means she knows exactly what your school has taught you or should have taught you and exactly what it didn't. She's currently doing her PhD on how exercise impacts a woman's sexuality and self-worth. Welcome to litheracy, Jordana Quain. Jordina Quain, welcome to litheracy. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. What a wonderful opportunity. I know it. We're gonna have fun today, aren't we? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a fun subject. So I ask all of my experts this as our first question. What do you wish someone had told you when you were younger that had nothing to do with your field and everything to do with being a woman?

Jordina 1:09

I really love the advice of going where you feel like you belong, where you're your biggest, boldest, weirdest, loudest, craziest self. Because I feel like as a young person, I had experience of what those spaces were like when I did theatre and drama and music and dance and things. And I also had the experience of being with people and in spaces where I felt small and trying to fit in and shunned and shamed, et cetera. So I would tell my younger self to not worry about fitting in with people and places that make you feel small and like an outlier and lean towards the crazy loud big bold places.

Maddie 1:45

I think that's

You Didn't Lose Anything: Rethinking Virginity

Maddie 1:46

such a beautiful answer because there are so many places that make you feel small when you're younger and to be able to be okay with being your weird, loud, crazy, silly self. Like it's such a gift to be able to give yourself. And yeah, great advice. Love that one. So we are here to talk about sex today. Um, I would love to talk about virginity, or as you told me, it was called sexual debut, which I also love. Um, we know according to Jen Gunter, the hymen doesn't actually break. Like my generation was taught that you popped the cherry, you broke the hymen. Um, it doesn't actually cover the vaginal opening. It's a flexible membrane present from birth that never disappears. I didn't know that. So when a man makes his sexual debut, we hear all about him gaining something, right? He is more popular with the rest of his friends, he's gained something, but a woman loses her virginity. Is that the right mindset for a woman to start her sexual journey with?

Jordina 2:49

Look, it's not a very helpful one. It's it's already putting a pressure on girls and women that's often not there for men and boys, which is that it's building this idea that there's a right way to do something and a wrong way to do something. And this is where the concepts of being a good girl and a bad girl often come in. So with virginity, it is what we'd call a social construct. So it's completely made up. And that means that wherever you are in history, which country you're in, which family you're in, which culture you're in, there's different ideas of what virginity is. Yeah. Um, who you should have sex with, who you shouldn't, when you should have it, when you shouldn't. Every single person and every culture has different opinions on what that is. Yeah. And I say that because it means there is no right and wrong. There is only what you do want to do, what you don't want to do, what you think is right, um, and leading with your values and your intention and your beliefs. So it's really not helpful to um blame and shame people for um losing their virginity in a bad way. I do love the term sexual debut. So like first time having a sexual experience. Um, I once wrote a musical song called I Didn't Lose My Virginity, I Found My Sexuality.

Maddie 4:03

Oh, I love it. I want to hear that.

Jordina 4:04

Um yeah, we and I really love that framing where you know women and girls can gain just as much and get just as much of a positive experience around their initial sexual experiences. Um, it doesn't help to make them feel like they're already failing at it. Yeah, it puts quite a dampener on something that's supposed to be fun and explorative and joyful and embarrassing and awkward, um, but ultimately positive, it already makes girls feel like it's more important to think about the optics of sex and who they're having sex with and why they're doing it rather than prioritising how it feels, how they feel, and what they want to do or not want to do.

Maddie 4:42

Yeah. I think it's um really important too that girls that they understand they're not losing something, they're not gaining something. They are, you're still you with a new adventure, with a new experience. And I think like reframing that for a young girl just um, you're right, it changes the mindset a little bit and it it gives her a sense of um, okay, I didn't lose something with this experience. Like it was another experience, and I'm another experience in my life, and I'm gonna learn from that experience as well.

Jordina 5:20

Yeah. It definitely frames it as though often in in our culture that you're devalued, like you've lost value. Yeah, which is annoying because at the same time, if you're not having sex or haven't started having sex or aren't having enough sex, you're also seen as doing that wrong. Yeah. So like there is really is no way that girls can get it right if they're either um, you know, a slut or they're ashamed for not having or a prude. Yeah. And it's like, give the gals a break. Like, what the heck? So that's why really you can't be driven by what you think is right or wrong because everyone's gonna have different opinions. It's pretty rough.

The Mechanics Nobody Teaches

Maddie 5:59

What does nobody teach you about sex that you really should know before you have sex, let's say?

Jordina 6:07

Um, I did find this hard to think about because some people get really good sex ed, and some people would feel like they get all the information they need from their parents or from their teachers or from their siblings, aunties, cousins, whatever. Um but what is commonly not taught is probably more um I don't really like framing it this way, but it's probably more the mechanics of sex. So they're actually how you have sex, what the moves are, what it feels like, who puts what where, what it feels like, how you change positions, how you stop, how you ask someone to use a condom, like kind of those grey areas. So a lot of sex ed and conversations about sex can be really um abstract. So they're like, you'll know when it's right, um, ask for consent. Um, you know, you want to feel respected and you want to feel pleasure. And it's like, what does respect feel like? What does respect sound like? What does pleasure feel like? Um how do I actually sit in the discomfort of feeling awkward, asking a question, asking to stop? Like it's very hard to do those things. Yeah. And when we talk about them like they're easy, I think young people can just feel more ostracised and awkward and not confident in what they're doing. So I do wish more people talked about the mechanics of sex. And yeah, that is often why people go to porn or ask their friends about um what sex is like because talking around the topic, a lot of sex said doesn't have much sex in it, surprisingly. Yeah. Um, it just has the concepts surrounding sex, which is important, but not always helpful for what young people actually want.

Maddie 7:49

Yeah. So we are here to help young girls learn about sex. Do you want to talk about the mechanics of sex?

Jordina 7:57

Oh, I can. Yeah. I suppose I guess there's um it's a the great first question would be what is sex, right? Because even so many people, myself included when I was younger, thought that sex was just a penis in a vagina, right? Yeah. And often it was framed that okay, if if somebody was you with a respectful partner or a thoughtful partner, they would like do some foreplay. Yeah. And foreplay is just what people do before they have real sex. Yeah. And that kind of framing is just completely missing the point that you want it all to feel good. Yeah. And sex can be, you know, any kind of sensual, pleasurable touch or even conversation sometimes, um, right through to yes, penetration. But it's it's oral sex, it's um anal sex, it's kissing, it's touch, it's um any kind of erogenous zone play um connection, it's it's kind of everything under the sun. So therefore, when it comes to the mechanics of how you put like a penis in a vagina, or how um two people with vulvas have sex, it is harder for educators or parents to teach or talk about if they haven't had that sex or they actually themselves don't know those stories. So um, yeah, I suppose for um people who uh are of opposite sexes, things like I didn't know, like I literally thought when I was younger that I don't know, I thought, but I thought penises got erect at a 90 degree angle, and therefore that my vagina was a 90-degree angle, which makes no sense. So I thought it was like putting, I don't know, like a plug-in or socket kind of situation. Yeah, I didn't know the penis was like up, and vaginas went up, and therefore the motion of insertion was like up instead of in. Yeah. Does that make sense? It makes total sense. So that would be an example of what I call the mechanics of of sex, of the kind of positions you need to be in and and how it takes a while typically for people to be lubricated. If you want to have pleasurable sex, you need either natural lubrication or artificial lubrication that you're using, which makes much better sex. So when people are having sex for the first time, if they don't know that it should ideally be wet in a vagina, um, they can wonder why it's so hard to put a penis or a toy in or why they're not feeling pleasure. Because no one has talked about that like wet is good. Yeah. Either you're making it or you're using the lube. That that's an example of the mechanics. It's massively important. Yeah, just yeah, just so you know, like no making your body's making weird noises because you're sweaty is normal. Yeah. Uh queefing and sounds coming out of your vagina or your bum are normal. Um, feeling like you want to have a laugh or a break or need some water, or sometimes you have to stop to pee. Um, like that kind of stuff, I also see as the mechanics because they're things that happen and if you're not taught about them, you can really easily feel embarrassed or ashamed, or like, oh my god, this person's never gonna want to do this again. Um, but if we frame it all as normal and a part of the process. And fun. Yeah, and fun. Like that's what you want at front of mind. It's like, okay, you don't have to know. So I feel like sometimes people feel like they need to know every single thing about how to do it. So they'll do it perfectly, they'll be a great lover, you know, they won't get any complaints. But that's that's seeing something as a the that you win or you achieve rather than the joy and pleasure of an experience.

Maddie 11:36

Well, I think too the the thought, like I was really worried about like being good at it. And I don't think there is like a good and a bad at it. Like I said, I think it's understanding the mechanics of it and understanding your own pleasure so that you can feel safe. You can instruct someone when you don't like something. And I think your partner wants to give you pleasure. Hopefully, they want to give you pleasure. A healthy partner wants to give you pleasure. So if you can instruct them on what to do because you know your own body, like think about how much more fun that would be in those instances. So I I really worried about like being good at sex. And I think that's also like a really unhelpful way to look at sex. I think if you, you're right, if you look at sex like you feel safe with a partner, um, you're both on the same page consent-wise. And that goes through everything. We'll talk about um like porn later on and the stuff that's coming up in porn and some of the violent things that young boys and girls are learning nowadays and and going into how they think that's normal. But if you're continuously consenting and saying, yes, I'm enjoying this, yes, I'm having a fun time, yes, you just pushed air into my vagina and a queef came out and that was silly, and we could both laugh about it. Like, think about what a better environment, a more joyful way that you would then look forward to sex and that shame and that guilt that women have because our bodies make noises, because we don't understand the mechanics of sex, would fall away. And I just think what a nicer place to be for a young woman to go into her sexual journey for the rest of her life.

Sex Is a Place You Go

Jordina 13:32

Absolutely. I think when you frame it as play, I find that really helpful.

Maddie 13:36

Yeah.

Jordina 13:37

Um, and Esther Perel, love, um, watch everything and listen to everything she says. Um, she says that sex isn't a thing you do, it's a place you go. In the sense that you're trying to get out of your head and worrying like, what am I looking like? Did I shave my legs? Um, what's that fat roll doing on the back? Is that pimple on my bum still? Blah, blah, blah. Trying to get out of your head and into your body. And that's what they mean when they talk about a place you go where you're feeling pleasure, you're thinking about the other person, you're connected, and you can enjoy it. And like that's a real thing, right?

Maddie 14:12

Because I remember being self-conscious about like being on top when your boobs sag down and you're like, oh my God, like, but how does a girl get out of her head?

Jordina 14:23

It would be I mean it'd be it'd depend on who you are and the the challenges you have, to be honest with you. But I think things that really help are um trying to build your self-confidence around your body and your personality, your values and who you are, which again sounds really conceptual, but for me that would look like understanding that bodies are weird and wacky and varied and that there's no one way to be. For me, I I really did think there was one ideal body type. Yeah. And outside of that, you know, everyone was doing it wrong and just trying to be like that one ideal body type. And the older I've gotten, the more I've learned, and being a sexologist, the more I've learned that if you can think of it, someone's into it, right?

Maddie 15:09

Yeah.

Jordina 15:09

It's like there you you can do no wrong. There will be someone who's attracted to, I don't know, the role on your back that you hate, or um your hairy legs, or your tiny boobs, or your massive nose, like there will just be someone, or someone's probably, who thinks that's hot as can I swear?

Maddie 15:28

Go for it.

Jordina 15:28

Hot as fuck. Yeah, you know, and it's hard to believe that when you're surrounded by a world telling you to look one way, which is why like following different people on Instagram, listening to different people on podcasts, or spending time with people who um aren't just constantly reiterating this rhetoric of losing weight, getting smaller, being wider, um, being quieter, whatever it might be, normally helps people feel better about themselves. So having a broader sense of diversity and pleasure take care of it. It goes into the bedroom. So it's like it's not just like, oh, this is how you learn how to have more pleasure at sex. Like, this is how you learn how to have more pleasure in life, which also translates to a bedroom if that's where you're having sex.

Maddie 16:13

That is a really powerful message because I think it does, it does translate across everything. And I think it's a really powerful message for a girl who thinks that there's only one body shape because media has been just barraging us for decades that there is only one body shape. But take up the space, someone is gonna love you, someone's gonna think you're hot, and um yeah, I I love that message. Thank you for that.

Jordina 16:39

And even I'll just add even personality-wise, like if you feel like there's only one way to be sexy, you know, whether it's you know, talking in a voice like this and like wearing a low-cut top or like not sharing your feminist opinions, um, that's also that's also not one way to be sexy in your personality. There will be people who find it really attractive that you're loud and like your favorite thing to talk about is a video game and you would rather be running around a soccer pitch than doing your makeup. Like there will always just be someone that also finds your personality sexy and your body.

Maddie 17:12

Trust.

Three Seconds of Bravery

Maddie 17:13

How do you talk about sex before it happens, or how do you say, I'm not ready without feeling embarrassed?

Jordina 17:19

Honestly, I think you just will feel embarrassed. Because any anytime you do something for the first time, especially something that's personal or nerve-wracking or sensitive, it's very normal to feel embarrassed. Again, I think sometimes we can think, if I know everything about how to have a conversation about sex, I won't get nervous and I'll say all the right things and I won't do it wrong. And it's just another way that we restrict ourselves to being perfect and being the good girl. Embrace the messy, embrace the discomfort. I like talking about this kind of concept of three seconds of bravery. So if you have something you want to say or you want to start a conversation about sex, whether it's that you want to have it or not have it, if you can have three seconds of bravery and just start that sentence, you're already in it and you have to finish the sentence. And you can say things like, I hope that makes sense. I don't know if I'm getting my point across, but I I'm really wanting to, you know, be intimate with you, but I'm I'm not ready for penetrative sex, or I'm not ready for insert something here. It's about seeing how the other person responds as well. And they could make you feel really shit. Um, they could get awkward and uncomfortable and like put you down and lean away, metaphorically and physically, or they can lean in and uh ask more questions, they can um say that's completely fine, like I'm I'm on your schedule, I just want to spend time with you, whatever.

Maddie 18:48

I that's the dream, right?

Jordina 18:49

That's the dream, and it exists. And I I like to tell young people that you already know what it feels like to share something vulnerable and scary with someone that you trust and someone that maybe is not trustworthy. Like we often have friends that we can tell absolutely everything to, the really awkward stuff, stuff about our parents or our family or our grades or our body, whatever. And we know what it feels like to tell someone and have them go, oh girl, same. Or um, I completely understand why you'd be really scared by that. They make you feel safe, right? And then we know what it's like when you tell someone and they go, Oh, that's really weird, you shouldn't talk about that.

Maddie 19:27

Yeah.

Jordina 19:28

And it's the same with conversations about sex and bodies. Like if you have that three seconds of bravery and start the conversation with a partner, notice how they respond and how that response makes you feel. And that will normally lead you towards either wanting to um stay with intimate with them or have a relationship with them, or going, oh, if you already can't have this conversation, this ain't it.

Maddie 19:50

Yes. And I think it ties back to what you said at the beginning about the the situations that make you feel small and the situations that make you feel good and comfortable. I think if you've got a guy or a girl or whoever your partner is trying to persuade you or making you feel uncomfortable or anything like that, that should be a red flag, in my opinion. That should be an okay, I don't feel comfortable in this situation. He or she or they are not respecting my choice because my choice is just as important as their choice. My needs are just as important as their needs, and I don't understand why I'm being made to feel like this. That's a time to go situation. But if you can find someone who leans in, like you said, and makes you feel comfortable, that's the same with like you get to take up space, you get to be loud, you get to be silly, you get to be wacky. Like you found someone who is then worth possibly continuing to explore that time with.

Jordina 20:50

For sure. Like, yeah, you also get to be uncertain and embarrassed and nervous and worried. Like you get to have a full spectrum of human emotions, which is what we want in all our relationships.

Maddie 21:01

But and not be self-conscious because if you've got someone who's open to that conversation, chances are they're also gonna be someone that you can laugh with during sex. But if you've got someone who's already making you feel pressured, you're already feeling small, you're already gonna be self-conscious about everything going into that experience. And it's gonna be a really unpleasant time if that's how you start your experience with that.

Jordina 21:25

Yeah. If your needs are already being seen as less important than their needs, it's that's not how you have pleasure and orgasms in a healthy relationship. No. And like I love Sabrina Carpenter and I love one of her quotes in her songs, which is I get wet at the thought of you being a responsible guy.

Maddie 21:42

Woo!

Jordina 21:43

I'm like, I if people knew that the kinder, the more considerate, the more empathetic, whatever you were, the more typically when you feel safe and comfy, you're like, damn. Yep. I want to I mean I'm here.

Maddie 21:57

I'm

What Teens Are Actually Doing: The SSASH Survey

Maddie 21:58

here for this. Is a great that is a great one. I want that like put that right on that board for next time we talk. That is a shirt. Oh, let's get shirts. Let's get matching shirts. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. That's probably a it's probably trademark situations at bottom. Possibly. That's right. Um, so I want to talk about the SASH survey, the Australian survey of secondary students in sexual health that came out. What an eye-opener, right? I yeah. Every everyone, we'll put it in the show notes. Everyone needs to look. Young, older, everyone needs to look at this. Um so it surveyed 4,396 young people between the ages of 14 and 18, diverse in culture, gender, sexual identities. Um, their first experience was touching at 14.8, and oral sex at 15.6. Vaginal and anal intercourse followed at 15.9. Oral sex comes before the penetrative sex in the data, but it barely appears in school curriculums. And I don't know if parents are talking to their young kids about oral sex right now. Why is this not something if touching and oral sex is the first thing that young people do, why is this not the first conversation that people are having?

Jordina 23:16

Yeah, it's a good question. Honestly, people, young people, but adults also are awkward about sex, right? You can't teach and talk about sex well if you can't say words like penis, vagina, anus, breasts, tits, testicles, whatever. If you can't say the literal words that are needed to explain a sexual act, how to do it safely, etc., you can't have those conversations. And there's a lot of adults, whether they're parents, teachers, whomever, that can't say those words and feel comfortable. So they do avoid it, which I I understand. It's really hard. When I first started sexology, I couldn't even say the title of the class. I couldn't say sexology. Really? Throwback. Um, and I, you know, I have to practice. And my teacher said, if you can't say these words without laughing or visibly getting uncomfortable, you have to train yourself. And I literally used to look in a mirror and say, penis, penis, penis, vulva, vulva, vulva. At like all of the words. So I could be the person at the front of the class or in the group circle, you know, in a workshop who's talking about these things just like I would talk about my nose, my elbow, my feet. Like it's the sexual shame that really stops us from starting conversations or learning or supporting young people. So yeah, a lot of adults also didn't get good sex eds, so they have no idea what it even looks like. Um, so they don't know how to approach something like oral sex in a way that's age appropriate and appropriate for their role. Like it, I guess a lot of teachers are worried about mentioning certain things in class and being uh, you know, getting backlash from their bosses or from parents, etc. So it's much easier for them to just avoid it in the moment. Um, I mean, oral sex is talked about quite early on in the curriculum at schools, but it's mostly in relation to protective behaviors. So teaching young people that um we have private body parts and it includes our mouth. Often people will say the mouth is a private body part, but they won't say why. So yeah. So the oral sex part that you're talking about would be to say that the mouth is a private body part because things people can put things in it, whether it's fingers or a penis or a toy, whatever. Um, it is a private body part. So we start those conversations when they're young, kind of, but then we're not getting explicit. We're not saying what it is, how it is, um, how how it gets done, those mechanics again, as well as how to do them safely. They it would be mentioned in like the sexual health safer sex conversations of needing to use like a condom or a dental dam to have safer sex when you give oral. Yeah. Um, but yeah, not really what to do or why you would do it. Yeah. People wouldn't just say, oh yeah, people have oral sex because it feels really good.

Maddie 26:15

Yeah.

Jordina 26:16

It's like we just I don't know.

Maddie 26:18

I

Vulva Is Not a Dirty Word

Maddie 26:19

don't even think I got any of those talks when I was younger. And I also think, um, did your parents call your vulva a vulva? Or did they call it a hoo-hoo or a bajingo or any of the thousands of names that you have for your vulva area?

Jordina 26:34

I have no idea. I don't even think we acknowledged it its existence, to be honest. I had brothers and I had all um boy cousins and stuff. I think I called it a china, like the country. Accidentally, because I thought it was what it was called. Um, but yeah, most of the time. I was like, I've got it. I've heard people talking about this. It's a vagina. But it's also so cute. But yes, I get it. But yeah, people can't say the word, you're right. Yeah. And even the fact I feel like I've spend my frigging lifetime talking about how the vulva is on the outside of the body and the vagina is on the inside. So you can't really save seeing a vagina unless you've like got a speculum and you're like got some kind of torch and you're like, I'm gonna see a vagina today. Like it'd be quite uh, yeah, you'd be big quite purposeful if you want to see a vagina. Mostly you're seeing a vulva or the labia. Yeah. Um, minora or majora, which are on the outside.

Maddie 27:30

And I think I think that's why it's so important to for parents when they're talking to their children about their body parts, it's your penis, they're your testicles, it's not your dick and balls, it's not your whatever they want to call it, it's your vulva, it's your breasts, it's your like any body part, like you said, like your elbows and your knees and your toes. Because the more comfortable they get with having that conversation. And I think the birds and the bees talk is not just the one-off talk where you sit down and you're all nervous and everyone's like, oh, this is awkward. But you constantly like you, you chip away at it and you have little conversations about your body parts and about them start at puberty. They're changing, they're growing hair, they look different. And then you go go into sex a little bit more, a little bit more, because we know by the sash numbers that they're looking at porn at 11 and 13. Like they're already there. So if you haven't had that conversation, that is their first exposure besides the sex ed that they're getting at school. So you want to get ahead of it and you want to start when they're really young, because when they're really young, there's no shame around it. And there's no like, like my kids, my daughter, she like scratches herself and she touches herself, and I don't shame her for it. And I'm like, oh, what you doing over there? And she'll say, Oh, it's itchy. I'm like, Yeah, it gets itchy sometimes. Or my son will, you know, whip it out of the dinner table and I'll say, you know, you can touch that in your room, you know, whenever you want to, but at the dinner table is not an appropriate time to take your penis out and play with it. So I think having taking that shame away also starts that child on a path where sex is just as important as learning about finance or is just as important about learning your nutrition. And it shouldn't be shame. There shouldn't be anything around it. So start by calling them their anatomical names and being okay with that.

Jordina 29:23

Yeah. And that it's such a great place to start, because you said shame is learnt, yeah. It's not, you know, inherently in our DNA. And I mean, from a protective behaviors point of view, it's really important for young people and old people to know the names of their body parts so that they can tell a doctor if something hurts, um, you know, from a health perspective, um, in terms of a you know, abuse perspective, if they're reporting that somebody has touched them inappropriately, they're being taken seriously. It's more likely to be um penalized and go to court, etc. And in terms of a pleasure perspective, well, if you've grown up being able to use the terms and the names for your body parts without, you know, feeling uncomfortable, you can also ask for what you want and don't want, right? That's that doesn't just start when you're whatever age trying to have sex. Like it's very hard to ask for what you want and what feels good if you've never said the words out loud. And that doesn't mean you have to be like clinical and be like, can you please touch my labium and aura right now? Like it's not like that. It's just like if you can say like you know, clear vulva like tiz or nipples, whatever, you need to be able to ask for what you want, whether it's to protect yourself, to get health care, or to experience pleasure.

The Real Curriculum: Friends, Google and AI

Maddie 30:35

Um 80% of teens get their sexual information from friends, as opposed to 34% from parents. The national sex education of Australia essentially is a child telling another child, a teenager, at a sleepover. Assuming that friends are the real curriculum or not, what would you like them to be telling each other?

Jordina 30:56

Mmm, oh, so interesting. Um, well, firstly, I would say there's some 15-year-olds and young people that would give far better sex ed than parents and teachers. Like some young people that I've met are so inclusive and kind and celebratory and shamefree, like they would be amazing at my job. So not all the advice 15-year-olds are giving other 15-year-olds, etc., is bad advice. It's just interesting, I think, that you know, you feel more comfortable going to their peer, which as an adult, I go to my peers over my parents. For sure. Right? Like that that's not necessarily something that's odd, but I guess the thing that we would like is for people to, you know, be getting good sex education at school, which they should be according to the curriculum, um, or having tr what we'd call trusted adults in their life that they can ask for an experience to pin in on that's probably more likely to be based on broader life experience or hopefully, you know, inclusive and kind and reinforcing messages about choice and um sex positivity, etc. But young people are smart. They know who to go to and who not to go to. And a reason they might not talk to their parents or aunties or health professionals or teachers is because they can often get shut down for asking inappropriate questions, be told that they shouldn't be thinking about that, they shouldn't be having sex till they're married, you know, that it's gross or inappropriate, etc. So that's why they're going to their peers, because their peers go, oh yeah, I wanted that too. This is what you should do, or this is where you get condoms, or this is how you give head or whatever. Like that judgment isn't there. And now that we're often competing against not only Google, but now like AI, young people can get sex advice and information 24-7, which you can't normally contact anyone else 24-7. Um, and they're not being judged and shamed. Yeah. And they don't have that uncomfortable feeling of like, oh my god, this person's gonna tell my secret, or what are they gonna think of me? Will they ever look at me the same? Um, you know, that shame that is so gut-wrenching when you feel it. You don't have that if you ask AI or a friend, maybe. Um yeah, it's smart that they're avoiding, avoiding it in some ways, I think. What I wish they were um teaching each other and talking about each other was is probably around judgment. I think we can, as people, because we're human, judge others and put other people down and be like, oh, did you hear that that person you know had sex with that person at that party? Like, did you hear that she made out with three different guys and I, oh my gosh, that's terrible, blah, blah, blah. And like the more we have that rhetoric, the more we're all listening to each other and going, I can't be that girl. I shouldn't be that girl, that's a bad girl. To be a good girl, I need to not hook up with people at parties, not have sex, not wear slutty outfits, not get taken advantage of when I'm drunk. Like it's another version of slut shaming and victim blaming, really. So rape culture, really. And rape culture, yeah, that's how it's perpetuated, right? It's not always in these really big, obvious ways. It's in those subtle conversations where you go, I can't be that girl. Yep. And that's what stops us having, oh, I just got goosebumps from myself. Look at that. Um I was thinking about being a being a young person, like I have spent my life identifying as not a sexual person. I'm like, I'm a sexual being, I love like sex and sexuality, etc. But I've always said I'm a great sex educator and teacher because people don't sexualise me. I'm very like, I can be quite asexual, I'm very loud and down to earth and like someone's gonna find that sexy, right? I've learned this. Yes. Yeah. But I've I never wanted to be associated with being sexy because where I grew up and how I grew up, being sexy was unsafe. Yeah. It meant that people looked at you a certain way, people took advantage of you in a certain way, people judged and shamed you and shunned you in a certain way. And all I learned was don't be that girl, sexy's unsafe. And it's taken like over a decade to realize I can be, I can embrace being sexy. Being sexy is positive, and it's not something to be afraid of. If other people judge and shame and shun me, they're not my people. I can't control that. So that's kind of the rhetoric that I wish young people were helping each other talk about and think about and challenging, yeah, the stuff they're taught.

Shame Needs to Change Hands

Maddie 35:26

Yeah. And I think too, along with that, I was taught the same exact thing. Like it's not safe. You don't want to draw attention to yourself. But I think that's part of the bigger problem, right? And the educational system. That's not a me thing, that is a man thing who is sexualizing a younger girl. That needs to be addressed. That is not um, it's part of the whole rape culture where um if someone is sexually assaulted, what was she wearing? Who gives a shit what she was wearing? Who, my don't wear your uniform at school because the teachers might get distracted. Don't hire teachers that are sexualizing children. Like that comes back to education. And if it is men who are doing that, if that is women that are doing it, those are the people where this responsibility needs to lie. But I think you're right. I think it is because your parents want to keep you safe, right? We all want to keep our daughters safe. We all want to keep the women in our lives safe. So it is that until that side changes, which God, I hope it changes in this lifetime, you also need to do this. But it is hard to unweave that thought process. But I think if we can manage to somehow unweave that thought process and just say, like, I can wear this. It's okay if I wear this. I can't, I can say this, I can act like this, um, and know that the responsibility does not lie with you, that the responsibility lies with the predators and those people and that that are out to harm you.

Jordina 37:06

Yeah, absolutely. This reminds me of that quote that Gisèle, I can't remember her last name now. I have to look that up. Um Gisèle (Pelicot), someone said, um, that shame needs to change hands. So rather than the shame sitting with the girls and and women, it needs to sit with the perpetrators of violence or perpetrators of the patriarchy. It's not, it's not something we can control. But it there's a thing called good world theory, which is essentially talking about the fact that if you follow certain rules, bad things won't happen to you. Yeah. And it's a helpful theory to live by because it feels like if I lock all my doors before before I go to bed, I won't get robbed. If I don't wear slutty outfits, I won't get raped. Like it's a feeling of assumed safety that actually doesn't exist. And it's scary to think that there's nothing that you can definitely do that will always keep you safe. That is a scary thing to realize. But what we do know from decades of research is that the more you teach and talk about sex, the safer you're likely to be. Yeah. Because you know the names of your body parts, you know where to go to for help, you have people that you can talk to if you've had an unsafe, unwanted experience, or you've had a pleasurable, wonderful experience. But actually getting good sex ed and having conversations about sex and information about sex has shown to delay young people's first sexual experience or their sexual debut. So the more you know, the less likely you are to do it early. Because you're less likely to be pressured, yep, or coerced, or influenced by the fact that, well, everyone's doing it, so I just have to do it. Sex ed is all about encouraging young people to make decisions that align to their values, their wants, their beliefs, their culture, their religion. We don't tell anyone what to do. We give you the information, we give you the facts, and we encourage you to think about what you want to do with your life. And that's why it does delay for sexual experience. So I wish parents knew that because I think they're doing far more on board with it. Yeah. Um, yeah, but that's I think important to emphasize.

Untangling Sex and Love

Maddie 39:06

Yeah. When I was younger, um, I had this girlfriend, and she was a bit older than me. And so I learned a few things backwards, if you will. Um, so she had when she would have sex with a man, she had this really I I look back now and see it as a very unhealthy way of thinking about it, but she was really proud that she didn't need them to call her afterwards. It was like this badge of honor that she wore. And I remember thinking, oh man, she's so cool. Like she could just have a one-night stand and not need that. And like, I mean, I I suppose there is a power to that, like owning your own sexuality, and like if that's what you want to do, that is amazing. Go do it. But I I saw it as I tried and I tried and I tried, and I think what I was after was the safety and the love part. But I kept trying to find it by having sex, and everything kind of got tangled up together. So, how does a girl kind of find that powerful place, but also find like the loving, the genuine, the everything that she really wants? And like, how does that tangle happen?

Jordina 40:23

Yeah, um, it's such a common experience, I think. The tangle happens because of how we talk about sex and love in society, in movies, in stories, in in podcasts or whatever. We often will talk about sex and love as if they're the same thing. Yeah. You know, to the fact that some people call it making love, right? Um, to the fact that we think, well, if I if you really loved you, he wouldn't do X to you. You know this assumption that they're always together. And what you've beautifully demonstrated in that story is like for some people, sex and love do go together. Yeah. For other people, sex and love can be separate things where you can love someone and not want to have sex with them, or you can have sex with someone and not love them. Yeah. So we will all have experiences where we'll often all have experiences where um we have sex for pleasure, for fun, for play, for exploration, for the story, um, because we felt like it, because we were feeling a connection on that night. And that can be just as beautiful and perfect as when you have sex with someone who you really love, who you feel connected with, that you're in a long-term relationship with. Like it's really important when we talk about sex to not position one, like sex for love as like the goal, the the dream, the best thing, and sex for fun or one night stands or whatever, as like lesser than. They're all equal and important. And the what you mentioned before about just really wanting to know yourself and what you want, this is exactly where that comes in. Yeah. And a part of learning about sex and yourself and relationships, to be honest, it's just trial and error a lot of the time. Again, we can feel like I've got to do everything perfectly. Like I've whether that's have sex without feelings or whether that's only have sex if I'm in love. Like we can make rules because they make us feel safe, or we feel like we then won't get judged. But realistically, a lot of it is trial and error. And, you know, I've I've been the same person for a lot of my life of like, I just don't want to care so fucking much. Like, especially when I learned that sex sex can be for pleasure. I just thought all of my like Catholic values that I was raised with would like melt away. But those motherfuckers stay. They're still there. I challenge them every damn day. That feeling that I'm a bad person if I have sex, right? Like, it's still there. It's getting it's smaller and smaller and smaller over time. But it's yeah, it that's what I challenge. So I have kind of my my new my values and who I am now and how I live my life and what I believe is good and bad, but there's still all the stuff you're raised with and what the culture tells you is good and bad, and right or wrong, and good girl, bad girl stuff that that you have to battle. So if you're someone who you know can have sex and likes to have sex without love, amazing. Yeah. If you're someone who needs connection or love or safety or ongoing relationship to want to have sex with someone, that's great too. There is no better or worse or right or wrong. There's just what feels right for you. And sometimes that means trying something and going, ugh, didn't love that, and not doing it again. Yeah. And that's okay.

Parents: Your Discomfort or Their Safety

Maddie 43:41

I want to talk to you about parents. They know their kids are eventually gonna have sex, right? We our parents knew we were gonna have sex. I have two children, I know that they are going to have sex, and I think oftentimes the discomfort of the parent. Gets in the way of educating their kid. What would change if parents put their own discomfort aside and put the priority and the safety of their own child first?

Jordina 44:14

Oh, firstly, I think it's so interesting because you're right. People parents can both think, oh, my child is not sexual, they would not have sex. I don't need to talk about this. But they'll also often be the first ones that are like, I can't wait to be a grandparent one day. I'm like, how do you think that's happening? How do you think that's gonna happen, babe? FYI. Um, anyway. That's so true. I've never thought about it like that before. I think about it all the time. That's one thing. What I think would change if adults, parents, teachers, whomever, policymakers, put the needs and safety of young people above their discomfort and the optics, it would change everything. It would mean that people feel more empowered to say both yes and no to sex. It would mean, you know, we know from quality um research into sex education that if people receive comprehensive sexuality education, they're less likely to be both a victim and a perpetrator of a sexual crime. It increases people's ability to have empathy and compassion for people that are the same as them and different to them. So we're talking like less sexism, less racism, less homophobia, because you're trying to understand and be curious about other people's experience. You see other people as human and you care about them, which is why it would reduce the rates of assault and harm that happens to people because other people aren't then a hollow shell that you don't have to give a fuck about. They're people, and you're taught to care about them no matter who they are or their background or abilities. Um, it would mean that people are having more pleasurable sex, it would mean that people are more safe and able to be queer and um not conform to gender roles and not be really driven their whole life by the fear of being shamed or shunned or slut-shamed. Like it would absolutely transform how we live our world our life, and we'd probably be in a much more matriarchal uh society, which is shown to not drive those um violence and balance uh imbalances in relationships that are caused from patriarchal society.

Maddie 46:27

Yeah, I sh uh one thing I want to talk about with that empathy piece. Chanel Contos, who is incredible, and she is um an expert who we're talking to, she talks about the um the empath and the entitled um sexual assailant that is oftentimes like a person that you know is the good boy, the boy everybody loves. And she says that when your entitlement outweighs your empathy, then you have the ability to be to pressure girls to become that kind of sexual assailant. Um, and I just think that empathy peace that you said is so important because you do, you start to care about the other person's comfort. You don't just see them as the vessel. You and if that is the most that is it's not the stranger in the back alleyway. Like oftentimes it's that entitled person that thinks they have entitlement over your body that is the most common sexual predator. And I think if we can eliminate that sexual predator, then the stats would drop significantly on sexual assault and rape and everything else associated with that. So I think if parents can eliminate their discomfort and have the three seconds of bravery, I think like having that conversation, tying that empathy piece into their sons, into their daughters, even the daughters knowing that they deserve the empathy piece would transform that across the board.

Jordina 48:09

Absolutely.

The Chaos of Being Human

Jordina 48:10

And and it really is those those ideas of there being the right and wrong and the perfect that can seem like a helpful way to frame being a good person, but ultimately absolutely whip us in terrible ways. So for example, if you think if you do everything right and you follow all the rules, you're a perfect, wonderful person and you can't be challenged or do anything wrong, the idea that you could um push someone's sexual boundary or not listen to their consent or you know, have regret around sex, that if that fear of being the bad person, if they're the only options we're given, people can't allow themselves to make mistakes, to learn, to um admit if they've done something wrong, to reflect on their own behavior, to apologize. Like if you think you're either a good person or a bad person, or right or wrong, there's no room in that world for the gray where you can be a really good person who's trying their best and sometimes not have picked up on a social cue. And I'm I'm not talking about, you know, extreme assault cases here. Um or you know, if you um yeah, if if that it's just drives drives us in a way that is not helpful to think of people as as good or bad. There has to be room for us to go, all right, I think I made a mistake there. I think that, you know, I dated this person because actually I just wanted to know I could get them rather than really wanting to be with them. Yeah. Or if, you know, you're having casual sex with someone for a long time. I've done this, a lot of people have done this. It's like you're having casual sex with someone, you know that it's nothing serious, you don't want anything more with them, and you you think that they don't want a relationship with you. You're like, this is casual, it's casual. We've said it's casual, it's fine. You can feel normally if someone starts to grow feelings for you. Absolutely. You can kind of notice it and it's subtle. You can sometimes tell yourself, no, but they said it's casual.

Maddie 50:09

I'm not responsible for that. Instead of just addressing it.

Jordina 50:12

Yeah. And it's I I feel comfortable saying, yeah, there's times I've done that because I didn't want to have to have that uncomfortable conversation. I didn't want the dynamic to have to change. I yeah, just didn't really have the drive to have that conversation. So I ignored it. But with time and reflection and and self-compassion and whatever, I can look back and go, that wasn't ideal. I'm not proud that I did that. Um, but the only way I can make room for change and improvement is going, okay, well, next time if I notice that their behavior starts to change and I think they want more from me, I'm gonna be brave and just say, look, I've noticed a few behavior changes. Should we have the conversation again about like where we stand and how we're feeling? Yeah. And that's what I mean by the trial and error and embracing the messy. All you can do is just try to be a good person and learn and name stuff and apologize as you can.

Maddie 51:03

And I think you really can't get it right every time. Yeah. And I think the strongest people are the ones that are able to reflect on those past mistakes. And if you reflect on a past mistake and you're like, ooh, I didn't treat that person really well, like be a big enough person and a brave enough person that you can go back to that person and say, look, after I've I've thought about it, I'm really sorry. Like, can you imagine the difference that it would have made if you had a partner or someone you had sex with after a terrible experience, come back and be like, I'm really sorry that I did that. Can you imagine like how much better you would feel and how like the ability to then resolve that issue and not have to think about it or stew about it or bring that into future traumatic sexual experiences that you have in the future? I just think that that is if you can think about, if you have the ability to reflect on past sexual experiences, you really do grow and learn from every experience and just taking accountability for your actions because we are all we all started somewhere. We all have to learn about sex and we're not always gonna do it the right way or the most appropriate way. Hopefully we will. But if we don't, take accountability, go back, make it better, and then learn and then move forward and then don't do it again.

Jordina 52:29

Yeah. This human, the chaos of being human.

Porn Gets There First

Maddie 52:33

Yeah, it is. Um, before we get to the questions from the panel, I just want to really quickly talk to you about the porn numbers in Sash because that was very opening, eye-opening for me. We I obviously didn't have porn growing up. We didn't have phones, we didn't have access to everything in the palm of our hands, in the back of our pockets. Um, 77% of teens were shown it unintentionally by a friend through a YouTube channel that they watched, whatever, by 11 and a half years old. 74% sought it out on their own by 13. So by 13 years old, three quarters of the teens surveyed had watched it on purpose, not because they're depraved, but because they're curious and they're not getting that education elsewhere. What does watching porn at 11 or 13, how does that shape their first experiences with how sex is for them?

Jordina 53:30

Yeah, I mean, it would depend what what porn they're watching and in what kind of circumstances they're watching it. But typically, if they're watching free porn, which an 11-year-old probably is, um, they're learning that, you know, people don't ask for consent, people don't use condoms, there's often forms of violence, coerce or control or power being used. Um, there's often no conversation, no giggling, no cuddling, no kind of connection in a loving way, I suppose. So it can frame sex as something that happens to someone rather than with someone.

Maddie 54:04

Yep.

Jordina 54:05

And I think when you have that mindset, no matter what your your gender or or kind of sexual behaviors are, feeling like there's a dominator and a dominated can, you know, fuel harmful sexual scripts that we we want people to know, like that's an option on the platter of sexual behaviors, like sometimes playing with power and domination and um gen like roles, sex roles can be really fun and a part of like having a um explorative sex life, but it's just not the only way to do it. And I think if young people are watching porn that young and people aren't talking to them about um sex in the real world, um then they can think that is the only way to have sex. So that's why we want sex ed from either parents or family or community or schools, etc., to, you know, be introducing the other things on the platter of a sex life. So it can be really great for some people. Like if you're a queer young person who's never had anyone explain what queer sex looks like, you know, if it's not been taught at school or you're, you know, you're you know it's really not safe to talk to your parents about it and no one else in your friendship groups talked about their sexuality in that way. It might be the first time that you learn there's other people that are attracted to people of the same sex. Yeah. Or people that are genderqueer, right? Like there are ways that porn can be really positive, or if it's showing different types of bodies or um different types of sex positions, etc., there is possibility for it to be positive, but there's also just as many traumatizing, violent videos of sex on the internet that not only can create harmful understandings of sex, like there's a lot of young people that see porn and go, I never want to have sex that looks scary and painful and violent and awful, and I don't want to do it. Right. Um, which is why we want them to be able to talk to adults when they see stuff that scares them. Yeah. Um, and then there's young people who see it and go, Oh, that's how you have sex. Next time I'm with my girlfriend, I'm gonna choke her without asking. So yeah, we just want to be trying to introduce the full platter and spectrum of of sexual behaviors and making sure young people know consents normal and important throughout, cuddling, kissing, laughing, like, yeah, just expanding the view of sex from what porn introduces. Yeah. Do you want to talk about your PhD? Um, I always want to talk about my PhD.

The Sporty Sexologist

Maddie 56:40

I am super excited. Tell us what your PhD is in, and then um walk us through what being strong and comfortable in your own body and how your PhD is tying all into this, um, and how it affects your communication, your confidence, all of that type of stuff.

Jordina 56:58

Yeah. So yeah, I've been a sexologist for maybe 12 years. So working in sex education with young people. And in my private life, I've been an athlete. So I've always been a sporty girl playing kind of cricket, soccer, hanging around with the boys, um, over being more of a girly girl, I suppose. Now I identify as both. Um, but um, I really noticed that as I trained for in different endurance sports, so I did um Iron Man and I, you know, swam to Rotto, and things like that, I love endurance sport. And I had a lot of changes in my body and my sex drive and my sexuality in response to exercise and the sports that I was doing. So, for example, when I played soccer, I really loved having a space where I got to be aggressive and butch and like lean into my queerness and just like express myself in a way that was strong and confident. And then with endurance sport, you sit on a bike for eight hours, my gosh, my vulva did not exist. I couldn't feel a thing. I would literally feel like a Barbie doll, and I'd be using like um an air pulse vibrator on my clit, and I couldn't feel anything. It was like rubber for days. And I couldn't find I know supposed to have the most nerve endings. I don't know where they went. They're they're not in the store. Left them on the bike seat. Left them on the backseat. And and it was so interesting to me because there were these concepts where I was not able to find any research about uh the links between exercise or physical health, mental health, and sexual health that I was experiencing, my friends were experiencing, friends of all ages and stages, um, that really wasn't being talked about. So I started my PhD in looking at how exercise impacts women's sexuality and sense of themselves. So how much they matter, what their worth is, their confidence, their capability, um, and their connectedness and belonging in society. So I love it. Um, the main things that I think are interesting for young girls to know is around the confidence that you can get from whether it's exercise or education or having really great friends or community, is what helps to build a strong sense of self. And I always do do this when I say strong sense of self because I think of like your your backbone and like being someone who can stand up for their values and their rights and and say no or ask for what they want. It's like this core sense of self that's really important in life in the workplace with friends and family and setting boundaries in sex, in in getting pleasure or um saying no, etc. It's something that you carry in every facet of your life. And exercise can be something that, you know, gives you endorphins to make you feel great about yourself, training for a goal that makes you build that self-trust that you're someone that can um work hard and stick to a plan and you can rely on yourself. Being a part of a team can mean, you know, you matter to people in your community. People care that you're there, they care how you feel, they check in on you, and feeling like you matter makes you move through the world in a way that builds respect for yourself and treats yourself with respect and expects people to treat you with respect. And all of those things relate to how we build intimate relationships and how we have sex. Yeah. So the interesting thing for me is that there's things about exercise that can make um sex and sexuality more challenging, like no no vulva feeling, for example. Um or there's things about it that can make you feel really proud of your body and able to feel pleasure because you can um be seeing your body as something that's capable and beautiful and um, you know, strong or sensual rather than seeing it as something that's um embarrassing or too hairy or too flabby or too insert literally anything here. So it's such a great way to um build that self-confidence that you take in to all realms of your life, really.

Maddie 1:01:15

What a beautiful thing to do a PhD on because you are just you're connecting two things that are that have such a positive effect on a woman's life, and you're like building on it, right? So you're you're you've just you get to grow and you must have like such a great time doing all the research too, because like both both subjects are so fun. And I I love I love this PhD, and I'm so excited to be this PhD. You'll have to let us know all about what the research is.

Jordina 1:01:50

Oh, I will. Yes. I do love it so much, but in reality, it's a lot of time alone in the back room staring at a screen, and you're reading a lot about exercise and sex, and you're not doing either of them, which is kind of depressing in other ways, but it's really interesting. Yeah, amazing.

Maddie 1:02:05

Um,

Questions From the Panel

Maddie 1:02:06

so we're gonna go. We've got two questions um that we've got time for from the panel. Um, and I think they're really both important. Can you explain the variations of sex? My school taught us that it was for making babies or because of hormones rather than framing it as a positive experiencing, a positive experience for learning, building confidence, and exploring.

Jordina 1:02:29

Yeah, so this would be oh, so relevant to sex ed school specifically, where people might talk about we say bodies, bugs, and babies. So it's like, you know, don't have sex or you will get pregnant and die, which was a classic quote from uh, was it mean girls, I think, from my era? Um, or talking about bodies just as in terms of puberty and um ability to get pregnant, kind of seeing them as a vessel that didn't have any sensuality or pleasure or joy. So that's how sex is being talked about typically, I suppose. Um, that's because it is scary for adults to have to talk about the main reason people having sex is because it feels good. Yeah. And they normally are worried then that everyone's gonna go out and have um sex, basically, which would not be a terrible thing unless they don't want to. But that's such a good point.

Maddie 1:03:25

Like also talking to your child about sex or giving your child a vibrator at a younger age to teach them about pleasure, it doesn't encourage them to go out and have sex. It doesn't hypersexualize your child in any sort of way. Like your daughter is still your daughter. Um, it just will keep her safe, like you said, it will keep her safer longer. And I think it's really important for parents to know like having that conversation does not mean that you are encouraging then your child to go and have more sex or you are sexualizing your daughter. Like she is a sexual being, whether you like it or not. You had a child and she was a daughter, you had a child, it was a son, they are both sexual beings. So, like, get on board.

Jordina 1:04:11

And like you that you can be a sexual being, and that's not a bad thing or a shameful thing, or it doesn't diminish your value, right? It's like we want to be raising all people to think that you are valued and important and you matter whether you've never had sex, whether you sometimes have sex, or whether you have sex with 10 different people in a day. Like your worth is not tied to your sex life. It is just a part of you. Um, yeah, it's not as cut and dry as people can think. I think when we talk about sex as like how you do it, how often you do it, what kind of sex you're having is a way that we can just judge and shame and criticize people, not helpful. We want to be talking about sex uh in terms of how it makes you feel about yourself. Yeah. Um, does it make you feel connected, joyful, um, playful, pleasurable? Does it give you desire, attraction, like whatever? It can be really great and penalizing people for being sexual beings, as all humans are. I mean, it just doesn't make sense, but it also doesn't help in terms of safety and pleasure and all the things parents want to prevent.

Maddie 1:05:19

Yeah. How do you know when you're ready and who to have sex with?

Jordina 1:05:25

Again, there's no there's no categorically sh way you can be sure. You can only try to make decisions based on how you feel and what you think you want. And I realize that's not always really a helpful way to explain it, but there's there's a framework around like asking yourself the five whys. And I do find this helpful for myself. So it's like, well, why do you want to have sex with this person? You might say, Oh, my friend said that I should, or they've been really hounding me. Okay, well, why do you care? About them hand hounding you or that your friends are all told you to. Well, I want to fit in and I don't want to upset them. Okay, why don't you want to upset them? Because I won't be my friend if I don't whatever. You like follow the why's. Yep. And if that leads you to, I'm just doing it because I feel like I have to, that's probably not a great reason to have sex. Um, but if it leads you to because I'm excited and I want to explore and I want to have a go, and actually it's starting to get harder to not have sex and stop myself than it is to just like follow the urge. Um, that is a can be a helpful way to figure out like why you actually want to. Yeah. I think that it some sometimes you can have sex and you can regret it. And that's not always a really awful, terrible story. I know that I've had sex and I look back and I'm like, yeah, okay. Probably shouldn't have done that. I probably wouldn't do that again. Yeah. Um, there was no harm, there was no malice, there's nothing, you know, bad. It was just I maybe I wasn't feeling super confident. I didn't even like that person that much. And, you know, I left the experience feeling like maybe a bit more empty than kind of full and joyful. So I was like, didn't love it, but okay. I've learned something there, right? And again, when we restrict ourselves to like getting it perfect and making sure that 1000% we're ready to have sex, it doesn't allow for the complexity of feelings that can come from being unsure or or not knowing or thought thinking you were ready and actually turns out you weren't. Like all you can do is try to make decisions based on what you want and have sex with someone that does let let you and encourage you to change your mind or slow down or stop as you need. Um and that's really all you can do. Yeah, good answer.

Rapid Fire and One Last Lesson

Maddie 1:07:52

Um, all right, we're gonna hit rapid fire. So your options are yes, no, or it's complicated. Okay. Should you talk about contraception before having sex? Yes. Should someone withdraw sorry, can someone withdraw consent at any time during the act? Always. Yes. Is chemistry enough to build a healthy relationship? No. Should sex ever be something you feel like you owe someone? No. Is getting tested a normal part of being sexually active? Yes. Can pornography shape unrealistic expectations? Yes. Is silence the same as consent? No. Is pressure, coercive sex, a form of sexual assault? Yes. Um, and is pornography a healthy way for kids to learn about sex? It's complicated. Yeah, fair enough. All right, last question. Um, if you could go back and tell your teenage self one thing about sex, what would it be and how long did it take you to learn it?

Jordina 1:08:52

I'm still learning. I'm still learning. Aren't we all? Oh my gosh. Um I wish I knew when I was younger that there really is no right or wrong way, and that my value is not tied and is never tied to my sexual behaviors or the relationships that I have. That's something that I've, as I said, I feel like I'm still learning some of that, but it probably took me to my mid-20s to learn that when I studied sexology because I did think if I had too much sex, that was shameful. If I had sex before marriage, that was a sin. Um, if I wasn't having sex, no one would date me. Like I just couldn't understand how the fuck I was meant to get it right. And now I know there is no way to get it right.

Maddie 1:09:43

Yeah.

Jordina 1:09:43

And I did start off, you know, thinking that I wanted to wait to be married to have sex, because that's what I was told. And then I kind of adjusted the rule with my first boyfriend because I was like, I really love them, I don't want them to dump me. I am kind of feeling a bit horny and a bit sexy for them. Um, so I'm gonna change the rule to I can have sex or I can have sexual behaviors if I love them, if I love the person. And then when I had my first one night stand, um, when I was like, I don't know, 21 or something, I was like, I don't, I think I literally couldn't talk. I showered fully clothed after the experience because I wanted to wash the shame off it. Shoes and all. Oh and under shower, just going, who am I now? What are the rules now? Because I've just had sex with someone that I didn't love, and that's outside of like the rules of what a good girl does. So basically that shattered me, and then I started sexology and I was like, there are no rules. Do what you want, be kind, figure it out, find the joy, learn about the clitoris, and you'll be right. Sounds like that was such a good path for you to take. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I'm so grateful for the education I've had access to. It's yeah, fundamentally changed the course of my life.

Maddie 1:10:57

And I hope we fundamentally changed the course of a lot of other young women's lives here. Jordi, thank you so much for having this conversation. It was so fun, and we didn't get through half of these questions. So, will you please come back and answer the rest of these questions? Absolutely. Oh my god, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Literacy. Please take a moment to subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow along on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast so you can listen on the go. For episode resources or downloads on how to continue these conversations, head to our website, litheracy.com, L-I-T-H-E-R-A-C-Y.com. Make sure you're following us on Instagram at litheracy.pod and on TikTok at litheracy so you don't miss a thing during the week. And most importantly, if you've got a friend or family member that would be interested in this episode, share it with them because we believe an informed girl is a protected girl.