Meet Dr Marny Lishman

Maddie 0:00

The conversation today covers mental health and anxiety. We all have mental health. Not some of us, all of us. We are not here to make it clinical or scary. We are here to make it make sense. If anything we discuss today brings up something you are going through personally, please know that support is available to you right now. Lifeline is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week on 13114. Headspace is available for young people on 1800-650-890. Beyond Blue is available at 1300-22-4636. Today's guest trained as a doctor of psychology and therapy. She has spent the last two decades making the science of the mind feel like it belongs to everyone. She is the author of four books, a keynote speaker, a mental health and well-being commentator on Channel 9, and a columnist whose work has reached hundreds of thousands of people across Australia. More than any title, though, she's someone who believes you do not have to wait until you're falling apart to learn how to take care of yourself. Dr. Marny Lishman, welcome to Literacy. Dr. Marny Lishman, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Marny Lishman 1:08

Thank you so much for having me

Speak Up, Don't Be So Quiet

Dr. Marny Lishman 1:09

Maddie 1:09

Yeah, absolutely. Before we begin, I've got a question for you that I like to ask all of our experts. What do you wish someone had told you when you were 18 that it has nothing to do with your field, but everything to do with being a woman?

Dr. Marny Lishman 1:21

Oh what they wish, what I wish someone had told me. It would be just to speak up. Don't be so quiet.

Maddie 1:30

Take up space?

Dr. Marny Lishman 1:31

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's the big one that needed to be applied to my life way a lot earlier than if it's a good idea. Did it take you a long time to learn that one?

Maddie 1:39

It did. Yeah. Yeah. I think as women um of the previous generation, then the one that's that's in their teens now, I think um we were the be quiet and but be complicit type of generation. And I think it's taken us a really long time to find our voice there. Exactly. Exactly. I'm so glad you said that. That's such a good lesson. Yeah. Yeah.

What Anxiety Looks Like In A Teenage Girl

Maddie 2:03

You work with a lot of girls every day going through some really hard times. Most people think they know what anxiety looks like until someone actually describes it. What does it look like in a teenage girl? Oh, it could be so many things.

Dr. Marny Lishman 2:17

I think people think about anxiety as just this nervousness or maybe like this feeling of dread that I think a lot of people have actually experienced. Yeah. But for a teenage girl and for a lot of other people, it's it's so much more. It could be feelings of kind of sickness, you know, it could kind of manifest into kind of physical type symptoms. Um, it could be that lack of sleep or you you can't get to sleep or you're just continually waking up. So a lot of sleep interruption and disruption. Yeah. Uh you can't, it's it's just that uh, you know, those thoughts as um, you know, mental health professionals, we talk about that monkey mind where there's like this endless chitter-chatter uh in our minds, you know, unhelpful thoughts. Yeah, you know, they're worrying constantly, so worrying about the future, but then maybe even ruminating about things in the past. So there's so many different things, yeah, apart from that nervousness.

The Tangled Christmas Lights Of A Woman's Mind

Maddie 3:10

I heard someone describe a woman's mind. Um I'll start with a man's mind. Uh they described a man's mind as being a box and a file. And when they want to discuss something, they take something out, empty all the contents, and when they're done, they put all the contents back, they put it back in their drawer and they're done. But a woman's mind is like a big electrical cord that gets tangled and twisted, and the groceries are tied to daycare and and we're supposed to clean the house, but we're supposed to work, and like everything is so interwoven that it's hard for us to put all the contents back and kind of shove it back in its box nice and neat and tiny. It never really happens, does it?

Dr. Marny Lishman 3:48

Exactly. No, it's a little bit like the Christmas lights, you know, when you when they've been in a box for far too long. Yes. And they're all tangled out, uh tangled up. So I think when I've seen uh people when they've come to me because of anxiety, and sometimes they don't come to see a mental health professional because they feel like they've got anxiety, it's for other kind of signals or other feelings that they've got, and it ends up being anxiety once we've talked about it. But once they do kind of on in that first session, it it is like a big Christmas knot where you're taking it out of the box and going, look at this tangled all these overwhelming web pairs. Yeah, exactly. Um yeah, let's start untangling that together.

People-Pleasing And Holding It All Together

Maddie 4:26

Yeah, well that's so good that they've got you. Um, so I have always been a people pleaser, still not an ex people pleaser. I'm working on that. Um, and I've always been really good at holding it together, even from a young age. Do things like this, are they anxiety or do they create anxiety?

Dr. Marny Lishman 4:45

Oh, I think it's both. It is part of that kind of tangled web that we've been talking about. Yeah. I think uh particularly women, I I mean, everything that we're talking about, it is for males and females, isn't it? Um I think females seem to present with it differently. Um, and society has placed these unrealistic expectations of females as well. So I think we cop it from from all angles. So I think society has expected women to make sure that everybody else is okay, you know, that you're looking making sure that everyone's you know, feeling okay and you're putting your own feelings like last. Yeah, you know, with the nurturers, we often have more natural kind of empathy as well. So it's almost been conditioned, we've been conditioned to make sure that you know everyone else is okay over ourselves.

Maddie 5:37

And then we're so exhausted by the time we get to ourselves that you don't make the time or the space or anything like that for yourself, and it kind of compiles up.

Dr. Marny Lishman 5:45

Exactly. Yeah, so it just exacerbates everything. So it's almost like something that's been there for a long time. It's it's nature nurture as well. But because we actually kind of like plonk into the world and that's our blueprint, then yeah, that's how the world treats us, and then yeah, we just this blueprint, you know, that we've been operating on as adults was laid very early.

What Anxiety Does Inside Your Body

Maddie 6:09

What does anxiety do inside a girl's body?

Dr. Marny Lishman 6:12

Oh, yeah.

Maddie 6:14

It's a loaded one, I feel like.

Dr. Marny Lishman 6:15

It is, isn't it? Yeah. We could talk about this all day long. We could. Yeah, exactly. But this is the thing is that um anxiety is where the brain is perceiving a real or imagined threat. So as you can imagine, this served our ancestors so well in environments, you know, open environments, on the savannah, in the forest, in the jungle, uh, wherever our ancestors were wandering, and it served an amazing purpose and all about survival. It made us uh our our brains were honing in on any um perceived threats, and again, real or imagined, yeah in our environment, and would turn on this swift fight or flight response that actually either got us to to fight that that threat or run away really quick up a tree from it. Yeah. So, you know, fast forward 100,000 years or where or wherever to now, and our brain is doing exactly the same thing, but it's doing it in relation to, you know, friends gossiping about us or something that we've seen uh on social media or the stress that we might get from exams or all those things that are happening on a daily basis for all of us, our brain's still doing the same thing. So it could do anything from you know, making us sweat more, making our heart race, making us uh, you know, kind of feel sick. It can give us anything from kind of your mouth to to the other end, you know, that irrit irritation, irritable bowel syndrome, all those sorts of things can be affected. And and of course that monkey mine we were talking about where your brain can't stop thinking about that threat.

Maddie 7:49

Now

Fight, Flight Or Freeze

Maddie 7:50

I've always heard the fight or flight. Yes. But recently I've heard fight, flight, or freeze. Freeze, yeah. Has that always been, or is that a more recent thing?

Dr. Marny Lishman 7:59

Yeah, I mean, I think when we really think about it, it it uh it's probably been around for a very long time. But we Yeah, like but it didn't serve our ancestors a purpose. What would happen? We were too free in the wild. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so I think we've always talked about the more efficient fight or flight. Yeah. But what you'll see now is that people are talking about how we could just stop, you know, and just be into that in that freeze situation. And uh, you know, that could it it it doesn't always have to mean, you know, us just completely freeze. It could be something where we're just completely run down and completely burnt out, where we actually almost cease to function. We just can't move. Yeah. So that's part of that kind of freeze kind of mechanism as well. Yeah. Just see cease to function like we normally would.

Maddie 8:44

Yep. I think it's really important for older adults to know as well that that freeze mechanism exists. And if something happens, and that is a girl's reaction, and it's not the fight, and it's not the flight, and it's the freeze, that there might actually be something going on, and that's an okay reaction to trauma as well.

Dr. Marny Lishman 9:05

Exactly. Exactly. It's so important, and it's easy, isn't it, to when you see people who are in that kind of freeze state. So, and that could look like you know, just avoiding tasks, procrastinating, just wanting to sleep all day, you know, loss of pleasure in lots of activities that could be all those sorts of signals. And the the thing about teenagers is a lot of adults probably think they're being lazy.

Maddie 9:29

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 9:30

You know, so it's sometimes very easy to overlook and kind of go, get out of bed or you know, get back out there without really seeking to understand what could possibly be going on outside of laziness. Yeah. Yeah.

Stress Versus Anxiety

Dr. Marny Lishman 9:43

How does a girl distinguish between stress and anxiety? Yeah, yeah. I I think sometimes people kind of mesh the two together, don't they? And think both of them, we must avoid them at all costs. Yeah. But stress is an interesting one. Again, everyone perceives it as quite a negative thing, but it's something that we actually need in our lives. Like without our stress, yes, or things stressing us, you know, it could be, you know, an exam, it could be an assignment to hand in, it could be any sort of time pressure, or even just chores around the house as well. I can be stressful. We we all get stressed about that. But without that stress, we wouldn't get anything done. Yeah, would we?

Maddie 10:22

That's a good point. I didn't think of it from that perspective.

Dr. Marny Lishman 10:24

Yeah. So stress, you know, energizes us, it motivates us, it gets us to do things, it helps us focus. So without it, yeah, we'd just be kind of lying on the couch all day. And that sounds nice.

Maddie 10:34

It does sound nice, right?

Dr. Marny Lishman 10:37

But it's not nice every day to feel like that because you would be uh you would be very bored and very unfulfilled in life. Um, and that's unhealthy, isn't it?

Maddie 10:45

Yeah, so not all stress causes that cortisol bump that we all are hearing about of recently that there's too much cortisol from stress and that creates too much. So it's there's good stresses as well.

Dr. Marny Lishman 10:57

There's good stresses, even say organizing a party, you know, like your birthday party, or in the future it might be like a wedding or you know, something for work. Like it, you know, it it helps us get stuff done and it can be exciting. Yeah. All we want to avoid is that chronic stress where you're just riddled with adrenaline and cortisol and you're feeling, you know, miserable and you know, because that's the thing that leads us to not be energized and not motivated and exhausted. Yeah. So yeah, stress is an interesting word that we always need to unpack. Whereas anxiety, like we talked about, is our brain perceiving a threat, real or imagined, in our environment and the brain doing what it's supposed to do to protect us. Yeah. So, you know, stress and anxiety, you know, there there's good things about it and we have them for a reason. Yep. But it's what we do with it that matters. Because we don't want to be suffering con constantly for a very long time and chronically with any of those to types of feelings.

Maddie 11:51

What happens when chronic stress sets in over a long period of time?

Dr. Marny Lishman 11:57

Yeah, it just wears you down. So all the things that say acute stress, which is that over and done with type of stress that we need, um, that keeps our life, you know, like fun and energized and helps us fulfill our goals. If we're feeling stressed all the time, you know, it it will burn you out. It's exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. Burnout, not motivated, yeah, sucks all the energy out of you. Exhausted. All that sort of thing happens when it's chronic stress over and done with. And that's when that adrenaline cortisol is just sitting inside of you and it's not moving.

Maddie 12:31

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 12:31

Yeah.

What Leads To A Panic Attack

Maddie 12:32

That's not good. Does anxiety always turn into panic attacks or what kind of um what leads to a panic attack?

Dr. Marny Lishman 12:41

Not always. I I think it me panic attacks are quite rare, really, considering how many people have anxiety. So if you think of anxiety, anxiety is like the most common chronic health condition in the world. Is it really? Yeah. So it's like one in four people experience anxiety. And again, it serves a purpose, doesn't it? It helps protect us in the wild. So it's quite normal, normal for us to feel anxiety kind of throughout the day, but we just don't want it to affect our lives and we don't want to be in a state of distress. When people have panic attacks, it's when that kind of fight or flight response turns on in such a way that it can, you know, really it's almost like there's a lion standing in front of you. Yeah. Even if it's just from a thought. Yeah. And so a panic attack might mean that you you it feels like you're having such trouble breathing. So it's that shortness of breath, you know, heart palpitations, the room going in and out, you know, sweating. Yeah. You know, that it's a it's anxiety that's extremely escalated, but it does subside. But sometimes it feels like you're having a heart attack at the time. And a lot of people who are actually admitted into emergency departments, they think they're having a heart attack, but it's actually a panic attack. That's how strong it is. What an awful experience. Yeah, exactly. So you can see that brain is protecting them so much that it's just causing such an immense amount of distress.

Maddie 14:09

That brain is it's such a powerful thing and your thoughts have such power over you.

Dr. Marny Lishman 14:14

Exactly. Exactly. That it manifests into such physical symptoms.

Maddie 14:18

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 14:19

Yeah.

Anxiety, Your Cycle And Becoming A Detective

Maddie 14:20

Can it feel worse or stronger anxieties in in particular during different parts of their cycle?

Dr. Marny Lishman 14:27

I d I think so. I mean, there's no one size fits all uh you know, kind of um scenario. And I think this is why it's so important for uh anyone to really work with a mental health professional when they're feeling like this. Yeah. Because not only do we take into account them as an individual, but also the context that they're operating in. Yeah. So, you know, for some women uh or for some, you know, young women in particular, is getting used to your kind of your chemical composition and what you're, you know, your and your physiology and trying to learn how to work with it better. So yes, for some, yeah, that the the menstrual cycle will actually exacerbate all of it. Yeah. For others, not so much. So it's something to think about, isn't it? And and when I'm talking to uh people, it's almost like we're detectives together. You know, when they're feeling a certain way, we kind of, you know, I'll I'll talk to them about what their their symptoms are, how they're feeling, what's going on. And then we're kind of wondering where it's coming from, you know, together. So we kind of just, you know, a little bit of an investigation, you know. When does this happen? When does it turn on? When does it turn off? What helps? What doesn't? What's going on at home? What's going on at school? So in your friends' group, well, we try and figure out where this is coming from. And it could be, yeah, but kind of something biological, or or maybe, you know, there's something going on in the context of your life that could be turning this on as well.

Maddie 15:58

It's such a great thing for you to be able to provide that safe space for them. Because I think a lot of young people don't have that safe space. So to come to you and know that they can talk it out and be a detective with you and really see things that they might not see about their life that you can see about their life. Well, exactly, exactly. Is such a powerful tool for you to be able to give them.

Dr. Marny Lishman 16:19

It is, it is. And also that just that that feeling that if it happens again in the future, you know, there's a bit of a formula that someone can walk away with. Yeah. You know, whether they're 20 or 30 or 40 or 50, you know, something that they might learn when they're 16 or 17. They can be a little bit inquisitive and a little bit curious to kind of go, oh, I'm feeling like this again. What is this about?

Maddie 16:42

Felt like that before. And Marny said.

Dr. Marny Lishman 16:45

Yeah, exactly. What is this about? What could this be? So you can be a bit more curious rather than going into a panic. You know, once you start observing how you act and investigating a little bit why why you act like that, then you're in a really powerful position when it inevitably happens in the future. Yeah, because life is, you know, a series of ups and downs and trials and tribulations and highs and lows and successes and failures. That's what makes life kind of psychologically rich, isn't it? Like not avoiding everything that's really bad and hard. Yeah. It's about, you know, living life to its fullest. And when you are not feeling good, is kind of going, what is this about? Yeah. And what are some of the things I can do?

Why Self-Awareness Can't Wait

Maddie 17:26

But it's also such self-awareness. Like, I didn't have self-awareness at 17, 18 years old. I only developed that, you know, like three, four years ago that I was like, oh, I'm feeling this way. Exactly. But the more that we can be self-aware, we can give ourselves those tools to be curious about that type of stuff.

Dr. Marny Lishman 17:42

Oh, for sure. And this is why prevention is so important. I mean, yeah, treatment is so important. But I think having these conversations like we're having now, you know, talking about it at schools and, you know, out in the community and in the media and all that sort of stuff. We should be arming people with all this information so much earlier than we have been. Like, you know, we were probably playing Barbies at 17, not really self-aware at all. And trippers. I was busy cutting my Barbie's hair, not thinking much about anything. But I don't that didn't serve it perfect. It wasn't very helpful, was it?

Maddie 18:14

No, it wasn't. But you still it's got you there.

Dr. Marny Lishman 18:16

Exactly. But how powerful to to learn all of this so much earlier when we were probably figuring it out for a lot longer. Yeah.

Maddie 18:25

Yeah.

The Invisible Mental Load Starts Young

Maddie 18:26

I have been sitting with a lot of teenage girls of recently for this podcast to find out what they're learning, what they're not learning, what they want to know. Um, and as an adult, I always thought the mental load that we carry as women, the invisible mental load that is now slowly being more talked about. Um I always thought that was an adult thing, but talking to these girls, it became rapidly clear that they're carrying they're carrying the mental load as well. Yeah. Their subjects are just different. So friendship, school, atar, social patterns, sports, deciding their future, romantic relationships, pressure from parents, homework, exams. Their mental load is the same as mine, but it might even be more invisible because we just expect that of them. When does that mental load of a woman start? When do we start carrying that?

Dr. Marny Lishman 19:28

Yeah, it was very early on. Well, I had no idea how early it was. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I I think it was just again, society it's nature nurture, isn't it? So I think society um expects so much of us. But and I don't know who originally said that women can have it all.

Maddie 19:49

What a disservice. What a massive disservice to women, because you constantly feel like a failure, don't you?

Dr. Marny Lishman 19:56

Exactly.

Maddie 19:56

You feel like you're failing every aspect of your life because you can't do it all. Exactly.

Dr. Marny Lishman 20:01

Which is impossible. Exactly. And it's only quite recent that that kind of mantra has been out there. So I think you know, I have we've we've come a long way, haven't we, women, in terms of equality and all that sort of stuff. But I think what's happened there is it's plonked so much more on our plates. Yep. You know, the more socially defined roles of the past, even though it wasn't equal and a lot of it was unfair and we didn't have uh enough choice. Yeah, there was almost less to do. So I think we're in this this, you know, a few decades on where we have been told we can have it all and we've got more choices and all those sorts of things, which are wonderful. We can have a career and all that sort of stuff, we can have a family and we can go travelling and but but uh something hasn't kept up with that. No, it's just put more things on our plate. Yeah, and no one's really talked about it. Like I think people have complained about it, yeah, but no one's kind of unpacked it all and put it all on the table and said, you know, this is not fair now. Yeah, this is not fair. And then you throw in, you know, you just gave a a lovely list of, you know, ATAR, you know, what all the expectations we have for the future, you know, families, travel, you know, the stresses at home, friendships, all that sort of stuff. But then remember, and again, it wasn't that long ago, back when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, we had gaps in our life to have that downtime or um, you know, have that that kind of slowness of our life. But now teenagers, again, are almost expected to fill that gap and they're online and they're watching the world crises happen in real time and they're connected to kind of thousands of people, you know, sometimes millions of people, and every gap that would have been downtime for us is filled. Yeah, so even though they have a lot of a lot of stuff on their plate, like we did, yeah, every spare moment is filled with mostly rubbish. I'm I'm gonna put that out. Out there. And I think a lot of teenage girls would agree as well. I don't think they're going to defend that. No. They would know that it a lot of it is. Yeah. And our brains have just been wired and conditioned to be filling every gap with all this stuff online. And that contributes because it's on the plate as well.

Maddie 22:18

I think

Why Your Brain Needs Boredom

Maddie 22:19

when I was younger, when we got home from school, we got home from sport, we went outside.

Dr. Marny Lishman 22:25

Yes.

Maddie 22:26

Up until like my senior year. I mom was out of the house. Yes. Go out, whether she needed it or not. She probably did looking back. She was probably no go. And I get that deeply now being a mother. But I think when you allow your mind to be bored, right? You create a space for your mind to just decompress. But when we're bored now, and I'm guilty of it too. Yeah. I take out my phone.

Dr. Marny Lishman 22:57

Yeah. Yeah.

Maddie 22:58

And I scroll.

Dr. Marny Lishman 22:58

Yes.

Maddie 22:59

And like you said, you don't think of like you think when you scroll, you're like, oh, influencers, and oh yeah, this, this, the. Yes. But you forget about like world politics and war. And those aren't light subjects to be putting into your brain at 10 o'clock at night when you can't sleep or on the bus ride. Like that, what's what how does boredom play a role in that?

Dr. Marny Lishman 23:22

Yeah. We because we had so much time to be bored. Yeah. Um, and and just being outside. I remember you coming home from school and you know, un unhealthily, mind you, grabbing a bowl of cheese yum, or something totally unhealthy. We ate a lot of rubbish back then. I think I think people are a lot better. You survived. Yeah, we yeah. Yeah, and we'd just like flake out in front of the telly and watch some cartoons and then we'd go outside, we'd ride our bikes, you know, even skateboarding and things. There was a lot of things that we just did to kind of decompress. Yeah. And now, yeah, everyone's kind of inside, not spending time connected to nature. So instead of being connected, they're more wired. Yeah. So we're just go, they're just going straight on their phones. And again, through no fault of anyone, because I'm guilty, you're guilty, like this is what we're doing. But we need to kind of go, hey, this is not good because we're getting so much unsolicited information that's actually going into our brain. And we forget that our brain's bringing this it all in with our with this with our senses, and we've got emotions that are attached to that. Yeah. You know, whether you're observing it and going, oh, that's an influencer or da-da-da-da-da-or, whatever. It's still there. And I know that I've been on TikTok sometimes, um, just for my own business and things, and I've just in the in the um in the feed, I've just seen some horrific stuff that I cannot unsee. Yeah. And I'm thinking, I'm hardly ever on TikTok, but when I have been, I've been heavily affected. And so kids that are watching this constantly, how are they processing all of this? It's not unhealthy. It's so unhealthy. Yeah. Um, so boredom is that that relaxation time, it's the resetting time, it's the rejuvenation time, you know? Yeah, it's all that sort of stuff. And and when we've got nothing to do, it's quite amazing what magic happens with your brain.

Maddie 25:13

Yeah, what does it do?

Dr. Marny Lishman 25:14

It gives you so much more ideas for things. It it almost gives you the solutions to problems that you might have. You know? Yep. So I really think we should be ritualizing some time in all of our days, doesn't matter what age we are, to just do nothing. Just to s sit outside, sit under a tree, you know, play with your pet outside and you know, not look at your phone, put your phone away.

Maddie 25:39

I love looking at cloud shapes with my kids. Uh-huh. Going outside, laying in our backyard, and looking at cloud shapes. I used to do that as a kid. Oh my gosh. And I just like to be able to, even for me as an adult, to be able to stop and take that time and prioritize that quiet. Yes. It's sacred to me now. Exactly. And it really does. The more I am not on my phone, the less I want to be on my phone. And the more I'm on my phone, the more I want to be on my phone.

Dr. Marny Lishman 26:07

Yes.

Maddie 26:08

And it's it's that self-fulfilling cycle where you get into that. Oh, when I have a chance, I gotta go back on. Oh, when I get a chance, I gotta go back on. You know, you gotta jump back on, and it's it's more, more, more, more, not less take the time out, take the break. So it's good to know. So that's one of the the prevention things that young girls can do. What are some other prevention? Because you're a big fan of prevention instead of waiting until the last minute, right? Exactly.

Dr. Marny Lishman 26:34

And

Train Your Brain, Take Back Control

Dr. Marny Lishman 26:35

this is what I mean, your example was so good in terms of you know, you can always train, you can train your brain. Yeah. That's what we need to remember. So the more you just kind of take a stand and say, I'm gonna be really disciplined with my phone and put it away, yeah, um, the more you will do that. And I think the thing about prevention is you have to remember that you need to take control. Yep. Like we're more powerful than we think we are. And if you don't stop for a moment and really have a think about, you know, how we feel and and what we actually need to be our best selves, we will be at the beck and call of the life around us. And that means, for example, you'll be at the beck and call of your phone and what it demands of you. You know, because it is that dopamine hit, isn't it? It's it's so strong. And the algorithm pool is so strong. Exactly. So for us to take control and say, you know, I need some time off, I need time to relax, I need time out with my friends, I know I need to take time to do some exercise, I need to take time in nature. Life won't say to you, hey, go and do this, here's some time. You actually have to look at your diary and go, hey, this is what I need to do to be my best self. And I'm gonna put it in my diary as a ritual of sorts. So for example, it might mean when I get home from school at 4 p.m., you know, I put my phone away, I put my bag away, and I, you know, have something to eat and I always go outside for a little while. Yep.

Maddie 28:00

And

Rest Is Not A Luxury

Maddie 28:01

make it as important as studying for an exam or going to the dentist or going to the doctor, make it as important because for a long time I, you know, brush off things like that that you do for yourself. Exactly. That because you're again the people-pleasing, oh, I've got to do something else for someone else. But understand that rest is not a luxury. Yeah. Rest is essential.

Dr. Marny Lishman 28:28

It is, it is. And a lot of say, like um, a lot of high performers in life, say your your favorite sports, yes, and they're an elite athlete. Um, relaxation and restoration is as important as their training. So it's actually built into their schedules. So it's no one's favorite sports person is training and performing uh 2027. Yeah. They're not, they can't function like that. So it's actually built in their training schedule, yeah, the the rest and restoration. Because it is as, or if not more important than the actual training itself. Yeah. It's so important for body and mind. So you think about the average teenager and how and their workloads. Yeah. You know, they're at school all day long, usually have extracurricular activities after. So his mind and body is on all the time. And of course, the time pressures, so adrenaline, cortisol, all that sort of stuff, again, good for a period of time, but you need time the downtime to just get back to like a homeostasis, get back to a balanced state. Yeah. And when you're like that, when your nervous system is in that kind of business as usual relaxation mode, that's where everything starts restoring. Yeah. And all the energy comes back. But we have to put in our diary because otherwise everyone will keep us busy. Yeah. Life will keep us busy. Our parents, our teachers, everyone wants something from us. But you know, you your first question to me was, you know, speak up. Yeah. Speak up more. We've got to start going, hey, what do I need to be my best self? And start saying to people what I actually need.

Saying What You Need, And Parents Who Listen

Maddie 30:11

How powerful would you be if you could actually say that and like know whatever the response is that you're going to get from a parent to, hey, do more. Hey, you still have to do this, hey, you have to still do that, to say, this is my rest time. This is really important to me. Yeah, exactly. That's a really powerful tool to be able to give a young girl.

Dr. Marny Lishman 30:31

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And of course, you know, people like ourselves, we're having these conversations and we're hoping like parents will listen as well. Absolutely. And um, you know, talking more about what the role of a parent is in this as well. And we we want our our teenagers to be able to to have boundaries in life and and let people know how they're feeling and why they're feeling like that and what they actually need. Yeah. And that means us parents need to be listening as well.

Maddie 30:56

Um be open to listening.

Dr. Marny Lishman 30:58

Yeah, exactly. So that's another piece of the puzzle, isn't it?

Maddie 31:01

That's a huge piece of the puzzle. As a as a parent myself, when my kids push back, sometimes it it is biting your lip and saying, It is. No, it's this is the way that I want it, and actually saying, Well, why do you why do you want it like this? Yeah. And I think when you start listening to your child again, it's that providing that safe space where a child feels like they can talk about something. Yeah. Um and that they're heard and not just Exactly. They don't have to constantly do things or people don't have to constantly talk at them that they've actually got a voice in the matter.

Dr. Marny Lishman 31:36

Exactly, exactly. And that's yeah, a piece of the empathic parenting and and and us being imperfect too. I've I've got teenagers, um, you know, I'm imperfect. You're there. I don't I don't don't know if I'd always get the the trophy for the best parent on earth. I think you of us would. I reckon I'll be higher.

Maddie 31:53

Good for you. That's amazing.

Dr. Marny Lishman 31:55

But you know, it is that empathy, isn't it? Is you know, getting the information out of your children and seeking to understand and being curious. Yeah. Uh it's amazing what goes on in a teenager's mind and and how much more they know about themselves than we even think they do. So having those open conversations is so powerful because they often have the answers. They just need someone to to listen to them. They do, don't they?

Maddie 32:19

Yeah. They're smarter than we give them credit for. Uh although I don't know that S17, I was smarter than anyone wanted to give me credit for. I was probably not, but I think this generation is a lot more switched on than we were.

Dr. Marny Lishman 32:30

Exactly, exactly. I learn a lot from my kids like that. They do. It does feel like they're smarter than me a lot of the time.

Maddie 32:38

Probably because they're dealing with a lot more than we dealt with. Well, exactly. And they have to grow up a lot faster. Exactly.

Dr. Marny Lishman 32:43

Which is really heartbreaking. They do, they do. But yeah, I think their voices are there a lot more than our generation. And I think that's wonderful.

The Stories An Anxious Mind Tells

Maddie 32:52

I do too. I love that about that. The anxious mind tells us stories as you were talking about earlier, um, really convincing ones. What are the most common stories that a young girl is telling herself these days? I'm not good enough, I can't do that, I'm not brave enough.

Dr. Marny Lishman 33:13

I need someone, I need someone to um you know, fill the gaps in my life. I can't do it all. I think some of those are the big ones. I think in people's minds at the moment, a lot of girls are are worried about the future as well. So I've said that more than ever. Yeah. What's gonna happen next? Yeah, yeah.

Maddie 33:40

Um,

What Resilience Really Is

Maddie 33:41

you talk about resilience and psychological flexibility as things that can actually be built. What does it look like practically for a girl who feels like she has neither right now and she's no idea where to start?

Dr. Marny Lishman 33:52

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, the word resilience, because it gets thrown around a lot. You know, we just need to be resilient. And I think let's do a course on resilience and and all, you know, it just gets thrown around. And I don't think people really understand what it actually is. And almost, yeah, I might enroll that course so I can become resilient. Yeah. But um resilience is the ability to go through something tricky or or challenging, um, and have a really rough time with it at times. You know?

Maddie 34:29

You're saying like it's okay to to have a rough time with it? Well, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 34:34

And and all of us, I think it's um, you know, like I was saying before, to have a psychologically rich life, we're going to have to do some hard things. Yeah. You know, we're gonna have to be brave, we're gonna have to make mistakes, um, we're gonna have to stuff up at times. And life is gonna be, you know, joyous and there's gonna be wonderful moments, but there's also gonna be really hard moments. For example, say when we're studying for a a test or an exam, like the feeling on the other side of it sometimes is really like happiness and you feel so like you've grown so much and you feel smarter. Yeah, uh, but the process of it was terrible sometimes, so much so that you just don't want to do it all. Yeah, you don't want to do it anymore. You're like, I'm you know, stuff this. I'm gonna do something else. Yeah. But um, so the resilience is actually in the in the challenge, you know, the resilience building is in the challenge, and it's also in the stuffing up of it as well. Yeah. So resilience um is the ability to, you know, you're you're you're building something even when it's really tough, when you're gone through something hard, and it's the dusting yourself off and getting back up again and moving on.

Maddie 35:47

That is hard to do sometimes.

Dr. Marny Lishman 35:49

It's it's really hard to do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But this growth doesn't happen.

Maddie 35:55

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 35:56

Growth doesn't happen when everything's like hunky dory. That's a very odd term I just use. But I don't think that's a good one. You know, when we're just skipping through life and everything's just successful and wonderful, you actually don't grow as much as you do when you're going through adversity or a challenge. Yep. So we actually grow when things are really hard. So that's what resilience is. It's just being out in life, going through something really tricky, and then growing as a result of it. Yep. That's the building of resilience. So that what happens then is your brain almost remembers the struggle and remembers the resources you had to get out of it. Yep. And then when something hard happens in the future, it becomes easier. Does it? So you become more resilient.

Maddie 36:41

Because you've been there.

Dr. Marny Lishman 36:42

Yeah.

Maddie 36:43

So you remember that you'll get through it.

Dr. Marny Lishman 36:44

Exactly. And from from not just me as a mental health professional, but probably all mental health professionals, people come to us when something's going on in their lives like this, a challenge, or they're feeling in distress in some way. Not not many people, some people do come when everything's fabulous. But for the most part, they're going through something that's causing them distress. Yeah. And it's amazing the growth that happens across sessions when they start realizing how strong they actually are. Yeah. And sometimes we're working through what the formula was in terms of getting through it, and then they use that in few future life events, and it becomes easier because they've got a new blueprint. So I often say to people, you you know, um, you're stronger than you think you are. Yep. We forget that. Yes. Yeah. Um and the most challenging moments and the hardest moments of our life that we've all gone through, it's amazing how much growth happened in those times.

Maddie 37:49

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 37:50

Yeah. So that's the resilience piece. It's it's actually comes from the doing. It's not from reading it out of a book and it's not from doing a course in it, even though those are quite helpful. It's actually going out in life and stuffing up sometimes and and and making mistakes. And it's for resilience comes from living life and it not always going to plan.

Storms, Dips And Getting Wiser

Maddie 38:10

Yeah. I read a really cool quote um the other day, and it talked about sometimes life gives you a storm, not to watch you struggle, but to clear your path. Yeah. And I just thought, like, you can hindsight's 20-20, right? You can always see the other side and why you went through there. And yes, I I got through there, I'm strong enough. Um, but when you're in it, sometimes it's so hard and heavy. But I always think like the universe would never give me something that I wasn't able to handle. Yes. And I can get through this. I think that because the mind is so powerful, when you talk positively to it, it has the ability, like you said, to train your mind and to turn that around. Like, yes, this sucks. Whatever I'm going through right now is awful.

Dr. Marny Lishman 39:03

Exactly.

Maddie 39:04

But I can get through this. Yeah. Because the universe wouldn't give me anything that I can get through. Exactly. I put a lot, a lot of stress on the universe. But I think that's so important too, because, like you said, it all ties together. Then you start remembering, oh yeah, I got through that. I'm on the other side. Exactly. It kind of all ties together, like what it does.

Dr. Marny Lishman 39:27

It does. It does. And it even ties into, you know, that concept that you mentioned before about psychological flexibility. That's all part of it as well, is like we're just kind of riding through life. You know, some things go really well, sometimes they're hard, you know, ups, downs. It's like a, you know, like uh you could just that up and down. You know, when you see a diagram of shares, yeah. The stock market reasons. You know, but they they go up, don't you know, they go a little up, down, up, down, but ultimately they're going up.

Maddie 39:54

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 39:55

So um, that's what life is like. You know, there's always going to be dips. And the thing is, as you get older, this is a beautiful thing about being our age, I'm probably a lot older than you, but um that we become wiser. And that's because we're able to look back at all those little dips on our diagram and kind of go, oh, that was so hard then. But hey, look what I did. And this is these are the resources and this is the support I got. Yep. And I actually got through that. Yeah. And so, you know, we get wiser as we get older. So it's it's yeah, but there is that trust that, you know, I can handle so much more than I thought I ever could.

Maddie 40:34

And I think as we get older too, like a lot of stuff falls away too, right? Yeah. Like a lot of the non-important things that we now know don't really matter anymore. Like what she's saying about me, that that that doesn't really matter. Like that's a her thing. That's not a me thing. Exactly. And so when when you're stressed or when an event comes up that stresses you out, you're not, you're dealing with that event, you're not dealing with that event plus what she said, plus this, you know, so it doesn't seem as large anymore. Yeah. And like you said, you just that memory of of Yeah, the things that you what you've been through.

Dr. Marny Lishman 41:15

Um it's a bit like vaccines, isn't it? It's like hard things and I was go getting through them is like inoculating you for further, you know, for future events. Yes. And you get stronger each time. It kind of gives you the, you know, the toughness and the resilience and you know, the the bounce back ability and all those sorts of things. Yeah. And and you get stronger as you get older. So there's that, isn't it? But you remember back to being a teenager, like say you had a a fight with a friend or you I mean. It was so big, wasn't it? It was. It was so big. So we we have to remember that, don't we? That these things would just you couldn't sleep. I remember not being able to sleep very well. Yeah. Um, because of an altercation with something, or even if a teacher said something a little bit kind of negative to me, you know, like, or if I got a bad mark, like it was so massive back then. So it we had to validate that, don't we? And go, eat. Absolutely. But it's amazing as you get older, you know, like part of the learning curve. It is, yeah.

Maddie 42:18

You have to do it, you have to go through it to learn what. And I mean, I still have things that happened to me in year 11 and 12 that I still think about, that still like traumatize me to think about. But you have to go through them to get to the other side to become the person that you're gonna be. Exactly. Um so I do think, yes, it's so important to recognize that it is big at the time because it is big. It is big, it is big.

Dr. Marny Lishman 42:44

But you know, like we were saying before, teenagers seem to be so much smarter the other days. So and and they think more about not only how they feel, but also why they might be thinking. So they observe more. Yeah. Whereas I don't remember doing that so much. I think I was fair. Yeah, I was too busy staring at Johnny Depp posters and Tom Cruise posters and but yeah, they're so much more posters. We need to bring the posters back. I know, bring your posters back. Yes. Uh but yeah, yeah, just kind of um being just really uh a lot smarter about who they are. That self-awareness is so much more there than it ever was. And I think that's such a powerful thing going forward, that ability to go through life, go through hard things, go through good things, but then you know, when it gets challenging, is once it happens, kind of go, what happened there? What worked, what didn't? You know, so it's like a constant state. If you can observe, you're in a constant state of evaluation, aren't you?

Maddie 43:42

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 43:43

And that's how you become wise and you make better decisions in the future is because if you've got kind of a growth, kind of learning mindset, you're like, no, yeah, nothing not everything's gonna go perfectly, not everything's gonna go to plan. Yeah. Um, but you know, what what didn't work there and what Gotta do better next time.

Maddie 44:01

So

What To Say When You Don't Have The Words

Maddie 44:02

if a young girl is in that kind of space and she's really struggling with something, like v deeply struggling, anxiety is up, maybe depression has entered the picture.

Dr. Marny Lishman 44:10

Yeah.

Maddie 44:11

What can she say to her parent? What can she say to a teacher, a trusted adult if she doesn't know what the words are to ask for help? Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 44:23

You you firstly, I think that's such a great question in terms of you don't have to go through anything alone. Yeah. So you've got to remember that as human beings are pack animals and we're wired to be around other people. Even if you're the most introverted person on earth, you still need people. Yeah. You know, you can have a rest from them now again, but you still need people.

Maddie 44:40

Um I think COVID taught us that really well.

Dr. Marny Lishman 44:42

Exactly, exactly. So that connection is so important. And you don't have to have the right words. Yeah. You know, even if you say, you know, take a teacher aside, or you take your parent aside, and you're like, I'm feeling I'm feeling really weird right now. You don't have to say, I feel like I've got anxiety, or I'm feeling like I've got depression. You could just describe it in any any words you want. It could be I'm just I'm not sleeping. You could talk in terms of the the signs or the the actual things that you're experiencing, or I just don't feel hungry, or you know, I'm running in bed.

Maddie 45:17

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 45:18

Yeah. Or I'm feeling odd. I don't feel like myself. Yeah. Like don't worry about having the right words. Just share your experience with other people, you trusted adults. And, you know, we're we can all be detectives with you and work together to find out what could be going on for you and and come up with a solution alongside you of what is what's going to actually help. And sometimes it might be going to see your GP, sometimes it might be something that you can navigate by yourself, yeah, you know, alongside your trusted person. Or it might be going and seeing a psychologist or a counsellor and working through with that kind of third person that's, you know, kind of not attached to anyone else in your life. So but just start with that that one person. I think that's feel good with.

Maddie 46:05

Yeah. And I think that's the benefit of going to a trusted adult is that if you tell them I don't feel like me, then then you leave it to the adult. Yeah. And that's the benefit of being an adult, is yes, recognizing the signs because you've either been there or you've seen it or you've studied it, or you know, you know that this child isn't the way that they are, or it's just by saying, I don't feel like me, there's a red flag that goes up, right? And there's a okay, okay, you don't feel like you. Let's let's talk about this. And I think just I think that's really great advice that you don't have to have the words. You can just say, I just don't feel like me and I don't know what's going on. Yeah, exactly. That's a great thing. Do you think Australian schools are doing enough for mental health, or are they just piling on the pressure with more work, ATARs exams, more and more and more?

Dr. Marny Lishman 46:53

Um,

Are Schools Doing Enough?

Dr. Marny Lishman 46:54

I think they need to do more. And yes, they are piling it on. But yeah, from someone who works a lot with schools as well, is that they're they're trying. They're trying their hardest, yeah, but it is full on for them as well. So we've got to find that Goldilocks position where we're really, yeah, working more with kids and what's actually going on for them and and stop that pile because it's it's too much. It is too much.

Questions From The Panel

Maddie 47:19

So we have got some questions from the panel. So we we've sat down and we've had uh questions from some young girls about what they want to know. And before I get to the questions, I want to read some of the things that they have told me. I'm so overloaded. I don't know how to find a healthy balance or prioritize what's the most important. I have no time for friends, for dates, or experiences. I feel lost and degraded. I'm so burnt out. Innocent fun is gone. I'm lonely. I feel judged and pressured for my peers to drink and do things I'm not comfortable with. Why does society expect so much from us? That's just a quarter of it. These girls are drowning right now, and I feel like I feel like us as a sci society are failing them by not seeing what they're going through, by not listening to them as they're going through that. And I don't know how to help them because it sat so heavy on my heart that these are the words that that they choose to describe their life right now. The first question is why do I replay conversations in my head for days afterwards? It's your brain trying to reconcile, isn't it?

Dr. Marny Lishman 49:00

That's the thing. Is that yeah, when your brain, you know, like the anxiety that we were talking about talking about before, it was your brain's perceiving kind of a threat in the environment, and that's that could be a problem of sorts. So it's seeking a solution. So it's ruminating over and over again until the solution happens. Yeah. So I often say to people, you know, when something's replaying in your mind, it's saying to you, come up with a solution. And the solution might not be actually solving the problem, but it might be giving it to a parent or a teacher or someone else, you know, so that your brain is kind of content. So that is one of the things where you gotta go, who can I talk to? Yeah. Yeah.

Maddie 49:40

Why does it why is it so hard to say no without feeling guilty?

Dr. Marny Lishman 49:44

It's the people-pleasing thing that we're talking about before. Yeah. So some of us can say no with ease. Yeah. I wish more of us were like that. Or should. Powerful thing. It's a full sentence in itself. No. It's a boundary, right? It is. It's such a powerful boundary. And I think it's something that we a lot of us, a lot of us women, I've been there, you've been there. Yeah. And obviously, um, you know, the person that wrote that question is is is there right now. But yeah, I think it's been, we've been conditioned to make sure, you know, that everybody else is okay except for us. And um, but by doing that, yeah, we're saying no to ourselves, aren't we? Yeah. We are saying yes to everybody else and always always caring about everybody else's feelings. Sometimes we're saying no to ourselves by doing that. So it's if you're feeling like that, it's it's very normal, but it's not going to be helpful in the long run. So talk to someone about that.

Maddie 50:37

Yeah, learn how to say no.

Dr. Marny Lishman 50:39

Yeah.

Maddie 50:39

Yeah. Um, what actually happens when you see a psychologist? Uh, yeah. Which I think is great for everyone to know because it is. It's what's behind the magic door, right? Exactly. What's behind the big scary door?

Dr. Marny Lishman 50:51

Exactly. Yeah, well, you in I reckon 99.9999% of psychologists are absolutely awesome. So behind that door is someone who is very well trained, um, who has lots of experiences and has lot lots of wisdom as well. And they're going to provide you with a really safe, non-judgmental, positive space to talk about and how you're feeling and what's actually going on for you. Yeah. But also provide you with lots of tools and techniques to help you navigate not only what you're going through, but just life in general.

Maddie 51:22

Yeah.

Dr. Marny Lishman 51:22

So I reckon everyone needs to see a psychologist. You know, everyone. I say to every, you know, whether you're a teenager or whether you're an adult, just having that person that, you know, you're in that confidential, you know, room. Yeah. Where you can just be you totally. Yep. So that, you know, that first session, but in particular, when it's a little bit scary walking in, usually that first session, I always say to people, okay, this is our first session together. Um, you know, I'm not gonna be mad if you don't come back or if I'm not the right person for you. So let's just start wherever you are. Let's have a chat. I'll might ask you some questions throughout, but I just want to make sure that uh, you know, our therapeutic fit, you know, the therapeutic fit is really important that you're really comfortable with me. And if you're not, if I'm not the right person, we can find you someone else. I can send you back to your GP and we can find someone better for you. So that first session is always, you know, the start of a conversation. Um, yeah, and it can lead to like endless possibilities. Yeah, a lot of growth happens when you say a psychologist.

Maddie 52:33

I know this podcast is for women, but I genuinely think it is so fundamentally important for men as well.

Dr. Marny Lishman 52:42

Oh, definitely.

Maddie 52:43

My husband did a year um in Switzerland for school, and as part of the curriculum, yeah, they had to do 10 mandatory psychological sessions. And um, I think a lot of the men in the class were initially resistant to it. Um but something amazing happens when you're a man and you're told you can't let those feelings out, right? And when you sit down and you open it up, and I think that's the beginning of you know, not only teaching our women to that your mind is just as powerful as the rest of your body and you have to take care of it, is teaching men that as well. Because if you teach a man how to let his feelings out, he feels more safe, women feel more safe. You know, it's that kind of domino effect that um you would hope that society can get to. For sure. Yeah. For sure, yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And last question from the girls, and then we'll do a rapid fire. Why do I always feel so sad and anxious after alcohol? Ah, yeah, because it's a depressant.

Dr. Marny Lishman 53:47

I I feel it too. I feel it too. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that very thing that you probably have a few sips of because you think it's gonna make you feel good and and feel more confident. Yeah, afterwards, yeah, there there is a come down and often it will affect your mood considerably. Yeah. So just be careful.

Maddie 54:06

All right,

Rapid Fire Questions

Maddie 54:07

our rapid fire questions. Yes, no, or it's complicated. Anxiety is a personality trait. Some people are just worriers, and there's nothing you can do about it. No, but it's also complicated. Yeah, okay. Boredom is good for mental health.

Dr. Marny Lishman 54:21

Yes.

Maddie 54:23

Anxiety can make you physically sick. Yes. Crying is a form of emotional regulation that we should all be doing more of. Big, yes. How good does it feel to have a big cry? So cathartic. So good. Oh, you feel so good afterwards. Um, loneliness feels the same as depression.

Dr. Marny Lishman 54:41

It's complicated, yeah. No, yes. It's different things, but it can lead to that if you don't do something about it.

Maddie 54:48

Yeah. Um, being exhausted all the time is just being a part of a teenager. No. Venting to your friends is a good way to process emotions. Yeah, venting is good. Yeah. Yeah. Grief or past trauma can cause anxiety years later.

Dr. Marny Lishman 55:04

Yeah.

Maddie 55:05

Yeah. If you cannot sleep, it means that something is wrong with you.

Dr. Marny Lishman 55:10

It's complicated. It doesn't mean anything's wrong with you. It's just gonna happen now and again. Yeah. But we've got to do something about it. Yeah. Talking.

Maddie 55:17

Good. Yeah. Uh putting your phone down for a week could genuinely change how you feel mentally. Yes, yes, yes.

What Marny Is Still Learning

Maddie 55:25

All right, our last question of the day. If you could go back and tell yourself one thing about this topic, what would it be? And how long did it take you to learn that?

Dr. Marny Lishman 55:33

Oh gosh. I'm still learning now. Yeah. Yeah. It's just tapping into you, observing you, and being more of you. So I think um, yeah. And that's a big one. But it it does involve that self-awareness, doesn't it? Yes, and being comfortable with you. And it took me a very long time. Yeah. Yeah.

Wrap Up

Maddie 55:53

Like it took us all a long time to learn that one. Yes. Marny, thank you so much for being here. This conversation has been so eye-opening and cathartic in and of itself. So thank you. Excellent. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for listening to this episode of Literacy. Please take a moment to subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow along on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts so you can listen on the go. For episode resources or downloads on how to continue these conversations, head to our website, literacy.com, L-I-T-H-E-R-A-C-Y.com. Make sure you're following us on Instagram at literacy.pod and on TikTok at literacy so you don't miss a thing during the week. And most importantly, if you've got a friend or family member that would be interested in this episode, share it with them because we believe an informed girl is a protected girl.