The People Who Let You Be Yourself

Maddie 0:02

We are back with a bonus episode of it LitHERacy today. We've got Kerry Mahoney, my partner in crime. And we are here to talk about safe spaces, which I think are as fundamental as food and water. So I'm gonna start us off with the questions. Was there a person when you were little that made you feel like you could completely be yourself without editing anything? Who was it? And what did they do that made you feel that way?

Kerry 0:33

That is a big one.

Maddie 0:35

That's uh that's a Pandora's box one.

Kerry 0:37

It is, it is. So I guess it probably changed throughout life, but if I'm going back to like little, little, um I I'm thinking of my aunties. I think because I lost my mum quite young.

Maddie 0:53

How old were you?

Kerry 0:54

I was eight when she died. She had bowel cancer.

Maddie 0:57

Sorry, Kerry.

Kerry 0:58

And I think it was like the next females in my life. Um and they made me feel safe because I think they were obviously obviously aware of the situation. And I don't know if it was like extra love or extra um don't know what the word I'm looking for. I don't know if it yeah, I don't know if it was if it was like extra love, if that's even a thing that's possible, but they just made me feel like if I was upset, I was upset, that was okay. Yeah, and just

Maddie 1:28

held.

Kerry 1:29

Yeah, but it also wasn't like it wasn't like oh stop crying, you've got to get on with it, or and then they just made life fun because I think that when you lose a parent so young, there's a lot of your childhood that then becomes not taken away from you, but it is a different vibe. And so having them allowing me to be a kid still in that space, I just remember always like being so excited to go for a sleepover or you know, being able to be silly with them because they had so much time for me and so much space. And so that is exactly where my mind went when you said that, because of the experience, and then just being able to give me the space to be a child in amongst it.

Maddie 2:10

I think it's such a beautiful gift to be able to give another human being where you are you become a person who they come to for protection to be seen, to be heard, to be felt, to be validated if you need that validation. I think, I really do think that safe spaces are rare. I think if you have a safe space can be two things, right? It can be a place where you feel like you're safe.

Kerry 2:39

Yeah

Maddie 2:40

It could be a person that you run to when you feel when you feel like you need somebody to fall apart with, where you feel like you can relax your shoulders, unclench your jaw, where you can be you free to talk, you don't have to perform, you don't have to be anything other than who you genuinely are in your soul. And I think if you are another person that provides that, then you are rare, you are a gift, and for the love of God, hold on to that person tightly because there are a lot of people that want things, that demand things from you, um, that you feel like you need to perform for. And if you find a place like that, so good on your aunties for like giving you what you needed, and I can't imagine what you must have needed at that point in your life, too.

Kerry 3:37

And it's funny you just said about the something that sprung to mind when you said that is that there were there were adults in in my life at that time that would say things to me like, okay, no, you've got to be strong for daddy, you know, and so the messaging of you've got to be strong for your dad, like an eight-year-old who's just lost their mother. And so I think being able to be in spaces where, and my dad never put that pressure on me to be strong for him, but I think because I was being told that by adults, I was like, okay, I have to. And so, like you said about relaxing your jaw, I probably didn't think of it like that as a kid. But being able to be out of home, but with aunties who loved and cared for me, and I didn't have to be brave for them, and I didn't have to hide what I was feeling from them. Again, not because that's what my dad made me do, but it was like people were telling me, so the internal messaging I got, because I think it's so it's such a malleable when you're that age, you're absorbing everything like a sponge. And so when adults are saying, This is how you've got to be for your dad, you're like, Okay, okay, I've got to, okay, I've got to do that, switch in. And so just when you're saying that, yeah, that was completely the space that I had when I went there. I didn't have to perform, I didn't have to be brave, I didn't have to do any of those things. I could just be eight-year-old Kerry who was like silly and laugh and joke. So 100%. If you can provide that space for someone, you are an angel and yet you do not let that person go.

Maddie 5:03

No, I think it's such a dangerous place to be like what first of all, what terrible advice.

Kerry 5:10

Horrendous, yeah.

Maddie 5:11

So awful to put on an eight-year-old child who has just lost her mother.

Kerry 5:15

Yeah.

Maddie 5:16

And I think that any young girl or boy, for that matter, if an adult is telling you that you have to be a certain way, that should be a red flag. You should push back on that. Why do I need to be a certain way? And I bet if you had asked, why do I have to be strong for my dad?

Kerry 5:37

Yeah.

Maddie 5:37

Like what would their answer be? Like because your dad is falling apart? Yes, well, I'm falling apart. Like, why I'm eight. I'm he's the adult. Why do I have I so I think that if you if you ever get advice from an adult and they tell you you should be a certain way, you have to be a certain way, push back on that.

Kerry 5:57

Yep.

Maddie 5:58

Ask why, ask all kinds of questions about it, because if it feels yucky, it probably is yucky.

Kerry 6:06

Yeah.

Maddie 6:06

And I think that leads me really well into my second question.

The Most Unsafe You've Ever Felt

Kerry 6:09

Love that.

Maddie 6:10

That feels like an unsafe place to be, right? What is the most unsafe place that you have ever been in?

Kerry 6:18

So I think, like we said, there's like the two, there's the physical space and being physically safe, and then there's the emotional space and being emotionally safe. And I think if I'm answering the emotional safety side of things, it's when I feel like I have to be someone other than I am. And I felt it at various different points in life. So again, like being told that I have to be a certain way. We lost a really good friend of ours, and this was in my 20s, and I remember being at the funeral, and somebody else said to me, Be strong for Sammy, who's my like soulmate in life. And I was like, if one more person tells me to be a certain way, and so and I know it's like a kind of off the cuff thing, but I think when you don't feel emotionally safe and seen and you have to mask, and that is when I felt the most unsafe and the most vulnerable, because you're like, okay, so there must be something wrong with with who I am if I'm being told, and must be something wrong with how I feel, if I'm being told by all these people, like do this, you should be doing this, and make sure you support this person and make sure you do this. And if I think back to different points in my life, whether it's been with a boyfriend or whether it's been, you know, in a in a workplace situation, the minute that someone makes me feel like, or I get the sense that, oh, okay, I need to do this this way, or I need to do that that way, um, that is when I feel like it's unsafe because you are not being authentic to yourself. And I think that that's when it ends up being slippery slopes and you can make decisions and and choices that you don't want to do, and you betray yourself because yeah, you're emotionally unsafe.

Maddie 7:55

Absolutely. I think some of the really there are unsafe places, like you said, emotionally. I think there are a physical unsafe places. I think if you find yourself in a girlfriend's group and you find yourself performing, or you find yourself that you only have to be this version for them to like you. And if you aren't that version, then you're out. I think if you find yourself in a family situation where you're hiding secrets from the outside world, I think if you find yourself in a relationship where you are fine until you say the wrong thing.

Kerry 8:32

Yep.

Maddie 8:32

And then like those are all really unsafe places to be. Um and I think physically for a woman, it is really like a snake pit out there of unsafe places to be. And I think knowing if you feel like you're unsafe, like your body will know before your brain does. Because I think in all of those dangerous situations, I think there's familiar. Like if you grew up in a household that was unsafe, physically, mentally, whatever it is, that is familiar to you. But familiar and safe can feel like the same thing until they don't.

Kerry 9:15

Yeah.

Maddie 9:16

And I think your body knows that your brain will make excuses. So if you can, if you can get in touch with your body and you can you can listen to it again. I feel like I'm always banging on about listening to your in your body and your gut, but if you can listen to it, you're probably in a safe place. And if you get to a place where you're like, oh, okay. It's probably a lot safer places to be. So I think it's really important to not just recognise the physical dangers of it, but the emotional dangers of it in young girls can be really cruel.

Kerry 9:50

Yeah.

Maddie 9:51

And find the people that are kind to you, find the people that will hold your space, that will like you for you and all your silly, wacky, wild, loud selfness. A place where you can be yourself in a relationship. And if you've got a family that's like that, don't hold, don't be afraid to tell someone else, a trusted adult, a teacher, an auntie, um, anyone else. Because when you hold secrets in, there's shame that sets in, there's guilt that sets in, and that sits with you for a really long time. So if you're in a situation where you feel unsafe, there are lots of safe people that you can talk to about that as well.

Kerry 10:29

Yeah, and and I think that a few important things you said there, one of them being about your gut, like I bang on about this all the time, too. It has taken me a really long time. Because if I think back to when I've intuitive, like my gut has told me something, but my head has convinced me otherwise. And then every time I my gut has not been wrong. And it's something that I say to my kids every day. I'm like, listen to your tummy, your tummy will know. And I I see them, there's been situations with them where they're you can see they're kind of like, I know I'm meant to be listening to my tummy. And you, it's almost like in real time you can see it happening. But it is, you're your stomach tells you, and that can it will tell you when you're physically in a space that's unsafe. And that doesn't have to be a dark alleyway or a nightclub. That can be a doctor's office. That can be, and this is the tricky one in a group of girlfriends, because you're like, no, but these girls love me and they care about me, but there's something about it that's just not sitting right. And I I think if you think back on friendships and you think, why did I hold back telling these things? And there's kind of two prongs to that. It's like, is it because I'm afraid of what they'll think of me, or you're scared that it will then isolate you? And so I think that, yeah, you've your stomach and your intuition is the biggest gift that you have, and it's right there at your disposal. And so listening to it, especially in those situations, especially as a young girl, like trying to navigate friendships. And I mean, I don't know now with like group chats and Instagrams and Snapchats and all that stuff. I mean, it just it's next level. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. I remember the day. I remember the day. Like you used to write the notes and you'd fold them into those funky little shapes and you'd pass them between classes. Um those that was like how we communicate, but yeah, listening to your gut and just making sure that you are, it's not just about your physical, but in that emotional safety as well. Yeah.

Maddie 12:20

That's all I got.

Kerry 12:21

Which actually kind of leads me. So we've talked about like the physical and emotional safe spaces.

What A Safe Space Feels Like

Kerry 12:28

Kerry 12:28

But in particular, what does a space safe space look like, feel like, sound like to you? Like what what how do you know that I'm in a safe space?

Maddie 12:39

I think for me, there's a lot of trust and vulnerability involved in having a safe space. I don't think I I love my family, and there's always been a safe physical space there. But I never felt like I could go home and talk to my parents about sex or talk to my sisters about it. Even now, like it feels strange to talk to my sisters about like going through perimenopause and like anxiety stuff. Like it feels weird to talk to them. And I think you're right. I think we choose as we grow older, like our family is our family, and it will always be. And I love them more than I will ever be able to express. But I think as you grow up and you move away from home, you create a chosen family. And I think um I have I never really found a safe place until I met my best friend, Kate. And she she without a shadow of a doubt, never makes me feel judged. She always holds the space. I feel seen, I feel heard, I feel loved, no matter what I come at her with. I could hide a dead body and call her in the middle of the night, and she would be there. Like she is the ride or die like kind of person that I, when I knew I had her, I hung on for dear life. And we have been best friends for two decades now. And um, I think there is something so sacred in finding. I think for me, it's people. People are my safe place because you can let your guard down. You can um, you don't have to filter what you say.

Kerry 14:35

Yep.

Maddie 14:36

You it's it's someone I always want to treat kindly. I always want to be kind to because I respect that kindness is reciprocated. I respect her deeply as a person. I respect her advice and her opinions, and she's just she's the kind of person, she's my soulmate. And my husband, I love him dearly, but I am a firm believer that women are our soulmates.

Kerry 15:01

I could not agree more. I've got a soulmate that is not my husband. And I love my husband dearly too. But Simon knows you asked my husband who my soulmate is, he'll be like Sammy.

Maddie 15:09

Yeah, and I think, I think women, if you're lucky enough to find a soulmate that can hold that safe space, it is it is such a beautiful thing to hold on to. So vulnerability, trust, um, being able to let your guard down and just feeling like without the shadow of a doubt, that everything that I tell her will be safe, will be kept, will be validated, will be, or that she'll tell me that I'm wrong when I'm wrong. And there's no judgment there. It's just that, oh, I'm maybe you might not be right. Maybe, are you sure? And she reflects things. So I'll ask her something and she'll say, Oh, and she's very therapeutic for me as well, like why do you think that? Like, she makes me come to my own conclusions sometimes. and that is a power in and of itself. She's so good at that. So for me, it's just it's having that space because I grew up in high school and I was in the wrong group of girls, and year 12 was hell for me because I was ousted from that entire group of girls, and I was by myself, and it was a really lonely place to be. And I came to look at women as the enemy.

Kerry 16:20

Wow.

Maddie 16:20

And for years I hung out with guys because they were a safer place, judgmental-wise for me, than women were. And it wasn't until I met a few girls in college that slowly helped me change my mind, and then I went off and met my girlfriend, Kate, that I came to see. Oh, girls aren't the enemy. Those girls might not have been what I needed at that time. They were pretty cruel, but these are how women can be. And and I have been building on that, and some of my very, very best friends are women who are supportive and kind and champion one another and build up one another. And hey, I have this contact that you will love and will go out of their way. Um, and I just think that when women choose to be vulnerable and provide that safe space for each other, like we are capable of absolutely extraordinary things.

Kerry 17:19

Oh, we could literally rule the world. And I think that there's

Maddie 17:22

We should be.

Kerry 17:24

Amen. Um, and I think that um it's that unconditional love, right? It's that, like, I keep my circle very, very small because I don't, for me, I don't want an inauthentic friendship. Like, if we can't have a conversation, so if you're upset with me or if we need to talk about something hard and we can't do that, then for me that's inauthentic because I have a very, very tiny group of like three or four girlfriends that I am very comfortable to open up about anything. I mean, Sam, I I will never forget the day that I, you know, when you like hold on to something and you just don't talk to anyone about it because you feel I remember talking to Sam about something one day and her reaction, the compassion that she met me with, the shame that I had put on myself for so long, and then the compassion that she met me with and was like, oh, like she just wanted to hold me and little Kerry and all of the space, she wanted to hold that. And that was that was like it's not a turn point in our friendship because we were always such good friends, but she like that space was more valuable than anything I could, you could never put a price on that. And so that's why we hold so tight to those. And I am so very lucky that I have three or four very good girlfriends that I can do that with and know that we'll they'll hold space. I have the like and they champion for me, and we champ, like they're the biggest cheerleaders, you know. It's the yeah, like you're saying, oh, I've got this person that knows this person, or it's supporting and encouraging one another, and it's not a competition, and it's never felt like a competition.

Maddie 19:04

Um I think it's so important that we realise too, like you'll never forget the way that someone made you feel.

Kerry 19:11

Never.

Maddie 19:11

And you'll never forget Sam for that.

Kerry 19:13

No, never. Yeah, never. And we have to be someone. Oh, absolutely. I don't know if you've got this with your girlfriend, but like Sam and I have this weird like intuition thing. So like she lives in America and so we don't see each other every day. Um, but she'll message and we call each other Snuggy. And so she'll be like, Hey Snuggy, how are you going? And I'm like, How did you know? Like, how did you know I just needed, or like vice versa. I'll be like, hey, just check it in, Snuggy, and she'll be like, Oh my god, I had the worst day, how did you know? It's just this weird intuition that we have, and again, I like what you experienced in in year 12, which is awful because it's like it's meant to be such a fun year, and that was kind of taken away from you because those girls were not safe for you, like emotionally not safe for you. And that is such a shitty, sucky position to be in.

Maddie 19:58

Yeah, it can be.

Kerry 19:59

Yeah, and that's not fair, and I'm sorry that happened in your like year 12 is meant to be like your fun coming of age, but yeah, to not have a safe space to have their, yeah. Everyone should have a safe space. And I women coming together and cheering each other on, whoo!

Maddie 20:16

Power.

Kerry 20:17

The patriarch is scared.

Maddie 20:18

Yeah, they should be.

Kerry 20:19

So they should be. So they should be.

Familiar Is Not The Same As Safe

Kerry 20:22

So I just want to kind of go back a little bit to what we were talking about. People, I think, assume that a safe space because it's your mum or your dad or they're in your family, that they're automatically a safe space. And it's not necessarily physically unsafe, like you said, um, about you know, not wanting to talk to your sisters. It's not, it's not about a physical unsafety, it's just that emotional unsafety. When did you realise the difference between them being familiar and being s and someone being safe?

Maddie 20:55

Uh it's taken me a very, very long time to figure out the difference between familiarity, safety, and non-safety. I've been very, I would even say extraordinarily lucky physically that I have been, I have always been safe. And I have never I I have been what I would call harassed. I've been a waitress, I've been a bartender. And I have um, there are moments when I question, I have question looking back now, knowing what I know, I've questioned the the safety of where I was or if I was assaulted or any of that type of stuff. Um, but there were a couple of times when I was younger that um we were on a trip in the Dominican Republic, and there I was out, we were it was must have been like eight or nine o'clock. It was early. And I was probably an early teenager. Um, and there I was on the beach, um, and we were all just playing with. Some kids that we had met, and um a security guard there w said to me, um, oh, come down by the water, come and have a look down by the water. It's such a beautiful night, like the water's so warm. And because I'd always been in a safe environment, yeah, and it felt from oh, security guard familiar, safe, yeah. I went with him and my dad saw me going and yelled.

Kerry 22:27

Yeah.

Maddie 22:28

And then he I he tore that man up and down.

Kerry 22:32

Yeah.

Maddie 22:32

And so he should have. And I thank God for that because that could have been a very scary place to be. And I think that was there was a very big conversation afterwards, rightfully so, about safety. And just because something looks safe and feels familiar, does not mean that it is safe.

Kerry 22:53

Yeah.

Maddie 22:53

And you are a young woman, you need to have your head about you, you need to protect yourself. So if you don't know that person, if someone asks you to come away from a crowd that you feel unsafe or that you feel safe with, like you've got to start reading some some red flags here. Like you've got to open your eyes. It is alarm bells, but when you're 13.

Kerry 23:15

And it's a security guard, because we're always told like police are safe as safe, blah, blah, blah. Security guards are meant to be safe.

Maddie 23:22

They're not always safe. And I think for me, it was like learning those things as you go, where there was a couple times in college that there were some close calls that I managed to get myself out of, and my dad's voice always rings like, know where you're at. Like know your footing before you step anywhere. And I think um sometimes it can feel familiar because your brain makes those excuses like you talked about. And if you go back to listening, I wasn't listening to my body because I was in the moment, I was having fun. Sometimes alcohol is or drugs are involved, and those inhibitions fly away. and it's fine. It's fine. I'm safe, I'm with these people, but it's not that way anymore. Girls can't go out and drink and not worrying about drink spiking. I think Rohypnol was the worst thing that we had to deal with, and that was like rare, very rare. Whereas you can buy Fanta on the internet now and spike anyone's drinks. Like

Kerry 24:28

terrifying.

Maddie 24:29

It's terrifying. So I think girls nowadays have to be way more aware of the familiar versus the safe. And um, they have to look out for themselves a lot more. I've I've just been really lucky up until this point, and that doesn't mean that I can get myself into trouble tomorrow.

Kerry 24:47

Yeah, absolutely.

Maddie 24:48

Um, so I think it's a lot harder for a woman to to have to deal with um with safety sometimes than men does do. And I think even trying to explain it to my husband, like I was telling him I didn't want to go for a walk the other night because it was starting to get dark. And he was like, Well, why why not? And I was like, Well, because there could be people in the bushes that jump out at me, or you know, I could be tangled or caught somewhere. Like those are things that women have to think about every single day, and men don't necessarily think about, or it does it never it boggles them, and oh, you don't really have to think about that every day. Or this parking garage, I have to hold my keys and my hands are like, yeah, or the mace or the alarms are like the things that women go through to find those safe places for ourselves. I think it doesn't occur to men because they don't have to. so I think it's really important just for women to have those space safe places and know the difference between what's familiar and what's safe.

How Isolation Happens Online

Kerry 25:48

Yeah, and I think it's also harder as well, especially for young people online, because what the the there's the physical way of isolating, and and you can be like, oh no, I don't know you, so I'm not gonna go there. You could have that kind of wits about you. But then if you are online and you're in a video game or you're you're doing something online and somebody goes, Oh, hey, come over to this chat platform, like, and you they try to isolate you digitally, you know, and like, oh my god, you're so mature for your age, or all of these things, or like, oh, if you don't come over here, then you don't really care, or like I can't talk. There's other ways that girls are now being isolated digitally that is also concerning, and they're not as obvious, maybe, as like, oh, come down here with me, you know. They're not yeah. Um, and so these young girls and have been put in, and and men to young men too, are being put in these situations digitally that is unsafe for them. but it is masked as it's safe because it's online. Well, no, it's just as dangerous, if not, like you're saying, more so because you have no idea, you have no face, you have no don't know who's on the other end of that.

Maddie 26:53

I would say assume that it's not who you think it is.

Kerry 26:55

Absolutely. And assume the worst.

Maddie 26:58

Assume the worst. I think yeah. I hate that we have to assume the worst or that we have to tell young girls to assume the worst, but it's also for protection.

Kerry 27:09

Absolutely.

Maddie 27:10

Because it's such an ever-changing landscape and it's changing fast. And um, yeah, I think it makes me sick to have to have to say things like that too.

Kerry 27:23

I know, because you don't want to assume the worst. You don't want to have to go through the world thinking negatively and that everyone's a bad person, but in in certain situations you do.

Maddie 27:31

Yeah.

Kerry 27:31

Um, just when you said, and I I will find it and I will put it in the show notes about going out for a run. There is a brand recently, and I'm sad that I can't remember who it is right now, but I will put it in the show notes, um, that have put out an ad, and it's about how what a young goes goes through a young girl's mind when she has when she goes out for a run. You know, she comes out the front door and she's got her headphones in, and it's this young Australian girl, and then there's a man and he looks at her and she's like, oh, I wonder, I wonder what he's thinking. No, like it's fine, don't worry, keep running. And then like somebody honks their horn, and it's every so you're not even we're not even in our bodies when we're doing things that are good for us because we are so worried that what's that person doing? Like, oh, is it getting a bit dark? You know, we're we are sacrificing things like your walk because what what could happen to me out there? Whereas like our husbands, they don't have that problem. Like, off you go, go for a run in the dark. Nobody's gonna care. Whereas I'm like, nope, not happening. The sun's down, time for bed.

Maddie 28:29

Yeah, yeah, it's a really hard place

You're Allowed To Build A Safe Space — The Safe Space Cards

Maddie 28:31

to be. Yeah. Um, so I want to just read this one thing that I wrote. Um, if you don't have a safe space, you are allowed to build one. Needing safety is not a weakness or neediness, it is not too much, it is a fundamental. You can build one by being honest about what safety actually feels like in your body, by choosing people who earn your trust rather than demand it, by creating physical environments that feel genuinely yours, and by developing relationships with yourself that are steady enough to stand on when nothing else outside is. And on that note, Kerry and I have created some safe space cards. They are cards, they're there, we'll put them in the show notes and they're on our website. But they are cards that help you with a parent, with a teacher, with anyone, with any adult who you would like a safe space for. So you can bring that card to your adult and it will tell them that you need a safe space in that moment. And they are not to judge you, they are not to explode, they are not to um punish you in that moment. You just need them to be calm, to listen, to help you out with whatever problem you are bringing to them. Yeah. And then you can agree on if there will be a talk afterwards, if there will be consequences. But the safe space card is for you to bring to an adult. Um, and there's criteria on there of what your adult will be, and there's criteria on there of what you will be in that conversation too. So Kerry and I, we we value safe spaces so much that we have created this just so that if you feel like you have done something wrong and you need an adult's help, but you're afraid to go to an adult because you are afraid of the reaction. Kerry and I created this for you so that you have a safe place to land always. Um, and if you don't have a safer space, then create one for yourself.

Kerry 30:52

Yeah, and uh the only thing I was said perfectly, the only thing I will add is I encourage parents, and I know sometimes it's hard based on how you were raised, but if your child brings this to you, uh know that it's probably taken a lot for them to bring it to you, and uh remember that you are the parent and they are the child and they are asking you for something in that moment. So it probably who knows what they'll tell you, and it might bring up things for you. But if you can just hold that space and trust, it is the biggest safety, it is the biggest gift that you will give your child. So I would encourage any parent out there whose child wants to come and talk to them to try and put your emotion to the side just for that time that they are talking to you so that they can get it out and it will, yeah, be the biggest gift you give them. And help them.

Maddie 31:42

Yeah

Kerry 31:43

Yeah, keep them safe.

Maddie 31:44

Safe spaces always,

Kerry 31:47

always,

Maddie 31:47

Always. All right, thanks, Kerry.

Kerry 31:49

Thanks.

Maddie 31:49

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